Buena
SAFE Volunteer
No horse will ever teach you as much as your first horse.
Posts: 1,929
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Post by Buena on Apr 28, 2008 21:39:19 GMT -5
I think Jon Ensign is still at Mission Farrier School for a while. But I haven't looked at his schedule lately.
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Post by Whitewolf821 on Apr 29, 2008 1:00:17 GMT -5
Jaime, is this a pain response? Does she have something out of whack that makes it painful for her legs to be messed with? Or is it just lack of training in general?
Just curious. It seems like a good, patient farrier (which I know SAFE uses) should be able to get something after this many tries.
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Post by schwung on Apr 29, 2008 1:38:57 GMT -5
Well that's her reaction to anything that scares her - not just having her feet handled. Like I said she pinned her ears and threatened to kick when I just reached up to unhook the halter. I think she just needs a lot of time, patience, and slow careful desensitization.
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Post by schwung on Apr 29, 2008 12:49:39 GMT -5
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Post by dbaldstockings on Apr 29, 2008 14:29:02 GMT -5
You might try putting a velcro close bell boot on a back foot letting her find out kicking doesn't make it go away, nor does it hurt. Since kicking has been working for her and you really don't want to get into the line of fire. I would NOT suggest kicking chains as she will likely blow up on you and you don't need a wreck, plus chains hurt and that is not an association you want her to make with handling her hind legs.
Of course, you first have to desensitize her to velcro noise; I'm betting she will be afraid of that, too. One step at a time. Oddly the aggressive/expressive horses seem to respond best to cheerful, laughing voice tones 'Well, don't you look silly with your ears back', rather than the 'QUIT' you would normally be inclined to use, since so much of their response is fear-aggression, rather than outright to-he//-with-you belligerence.
I know you have access to some very wise trainers; if any of them know Tellington-Jones work, I have found that is often very successful with this type. Round penning, on the other hand, can blow their minds and I would not recommend that training, popular though it seems to be. If you earn her trust, this is a horse who will go through fire for you; courage is not the absence of fear but the willingness to face it down. Even though her fear is irrational at this point, she shows a willingness to do or die.
She needs your support, and perhaps that of a mature, laid back pasturemate's example if you have one?
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Post by leahlady on Apr 29, 2008 14:40:23 GMT -5
She looks like a real handful!!
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Post by huskiesnhorses on Apr 29, 2008 14:53:19 GMT -5
From day 1 - Annie has always had that reaction to reaching for her head/halter - and the very second you get a hand on the halter - up go the ears and she is fine. I just have to believe she must have had a repeated traumatic event with someone reaching for her head.
Annie has always struck me as being a very intelligent horse - I think once she gets passed these issues she has - she is really going to be an awesome horse for someone. I think the bellboot idea is a great one....if you can get it on!
What about running a rope behind her pastern to practice pressure and lifting the foot with the rope at a distance. Remember that is how we ended up trimming Shiraca/Amigo et al and that seemed to work pretty good since they were so skittish and kept us out of harms way.
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Post by schwung on Apr 29, 2008 14:56:47 GMT -5
I had asked Daphne if she ever used that method and she said she had before, although she usually prefers and is successful with just patience and persistence. However, this is getting to the point the hind feet need to be done - whatever it takes. They are very long. Dr. Hannah is going out mid-May to do a pregnancy check on Dutchess and we are talking about possibly sedating Annie and getting her feet done that way, if Daphne still hasn't been able to do them by then. The problem is the foster home is not comfortable working with her on this (and I don't blame her...she doesn't just kick - she bites and strikes too).
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Post by huskiesnhorses on Apr 29, 2008 14:58:50 GMT -5
Yup, she definitely has to be worked with someone assertive (and a little quick on your feet don't hurt either)
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Post by huskiesnhorses on Apr 29, 2008 15:01:31 GMT -5
Jaime, is this a pain response? Does she have something out of whack that makes it painful for her legs to be messed with? Or is it just lack of training in general? Just curious. It seems like a good, patient farrier (which I know SAFE uses) should be able to get something after this many tries. I don't believe she has anything out of whack and you don't get better than Daphne in the ability to work with the most difficult horses. I think this is just Annie's thing and once she gets something in her head, she is going to stick to her guns until you have proven to her time and time again that it is not necessary and she isn't going to be hurt. I believe this is all from past bad handling. She is a stubborn girl - and she knows how to scare people off - and it works for her.
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Post by huskiesnhorses on Apr 29, 2008 15:04:50 GMT -5
I'd also like to add that even though she has pinned her ears at me and attempted to bite (again - reaching for her head) I never felt that it was because she was just a "mean" horse - I felt she was doing what she felt like she had to do to protect herself.
If this were not true, she would continue to be fearful and nasty even if you got your hand on her halter which she comes right around once that hand is clearly not hurting her.
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Post by dbaldstockings on Apr 29, 2008 20:14:25 GMT -5
At the risk of sounding obvious, extend the length of your arm by using a lunge or (easier) buggy whip to stroke her gently all over on her touchy spots except near her head. Don't hit, don't reprimand, just desensitize. She will kick and strike and eventually hesitate and stop; -your cue to stop, praise and go leave her alone (what she wants you to do). come back in 2 minutes and start over. It will take time for her to accept, but eventually she should stand calmly for the long whip and you graduate to other stroking things: a broom, a rag on the whip. Then to shorter things when she relaxes, whiffle ball bat, riding crop, toilet brush, whatever; until you can rub her with a rag in your hand and scritch on her lower neck and back where other horses do. But don't try the closeup until she is relaxed at a distance or you will probably get threatened, step back, and reinforce the bad behavior.
You can also use water from a hose on a kicker (not the pressure spray, just water) but you will end up with a swamp this time of year! Any rope on a horse's leg had better be 100% cotton; I'd desensitize first and be sure I had get-a-way room in case she escalates, but at least you can stay out of range using a rope to lift her foot. I'm thinking you may have to resort to sedation if time is of the essence -safety first.
By the way, how often has she actually connected with her kicks, strikes and bites? Horses have very good aim and incredible reflexes, if they truly want to get you, they can and do. -voice of painful experience
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Post by huskiesnhorses on Apr 29, 2008 20:36:01 GMT -5
Sounds like a good plan to me. As far as I am concerned - she "tapped" me with her toe - I was at the furthest range of her reach when we were trying to load her - so it was a tap - not sure if she even knew she connected with me. Other than that - no one got kicked loading her during the rescue (which is surprising because she was good for 4 or 5 good cow kicks a minute when the pressure was on.
She never connected during the ear pin and bite - and could have. (at least with me). I do think it is really all fear aggression. She LOVES attention and wants to be scritched and loved on...it's just these 2 areas.
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Post by dbaldstockings on Apr 30, 2008 15:03:42 GMT -5
I don't come up with these ideas myself; I steal from the best and pass it on if it works!
Many should recognize parts of Linda Tellington-Jones and Ray Hunt, there. Maybe even some Podhajsky if you look at his young horse recommendations.
Didn't someone say Annie was an opinionated Redhead? Sounds about right to me.
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Post by schwung on May 14, 2008 20:38:10 GMT -5
Annie finally got her back feet done with the help of a little sedation. It was a fine line between giving her enough sedation to keep her from kicking (apparantly, she was still hard to do) and not so much where she couldn't stand. But they got it done. Phew! She also got her shots.
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