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Post by roundrockrn on Oct 29, 2009 3:07:09 GMT -5
Remeber Bella? I rescued her from the Enumclaw auction last month. I need help. She's up to 3 flakes of alfalfa, 5 lbs senior and all the costal she can eat and still isn't gaining weight. Had the vet out to check her out and vaccinate her right after getting her home, I had her teeth floated (they were pretty bad, I had her feet done and have wormed her and she still doesn't seem to be gaining weight. Any suggestions??? Thanks, Lisa Attachments:
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Post by TashGaia on Oct 29, 2009 4:41:57 GMT -5
Pasture or stall? Blanket or not? You may consider having a consult with an equine nutritionist... oats and oil has always worked well for me, but an equine nutritionist can give you a complete run down
Honestly though, it hasn't even been a full month yet, so long as she isn't losing weight I wouldn't worry much yet.
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Post by trillium on Oct 29, 2009 6:17:22 GMT -5
You might want to put her on some Sand Clear for a week or so. If she has a lot of sand in her gut it might affect her nutrional absorbtion.
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Buena
SAFE Volunteer
No horse will ever teach you as much as your first horse.
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Post by Buena on Oct 29, 2009 10:47:53 GMT -5
You might try free choice grass hay, too. Doesn't have to be the expensive stuff. Just something good and full of fiber.
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Post by leahlady on Oct 29, 2009 11:05:16 GMT -5
That diet wouldn't keep weight on my blanketed TB - I guess I am used to hard keepers! I would up the alfalfa (our horses eat 4-5 flakes per day) and give free choice timothy, and add corn oil to the senior feed. Split into 2 meals you can work up to adding a cup morning and night. You can also put the oil on top of the alfalfa if she doesn't like it in the grain. I would definitely put a blanket on her also.
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Post by cat67 on Oct 29, 2009 11:36:51 GMT -5
A lot of drafts have EPSM or a related condition. You can run a blood panel to see or you can just try the diet advice for EPSM, which is what a friend of mine did - she skipped the testing but the diet worked, so voila, end of problem. www.ecmagazine.net/ecfall05/FeedingDrafts.htm
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Post by qhflicka on Oct 29, 2009 11:57:07 GMT -5
Has she been dewormed for tapeworms? It really could be tapeworm. I would deworm her at least once a month for a while.
I agree with an EPSM diet - Basically alfalfa, with Oil, all the grass hay she can eat and Selenium. Selenium will help her build muscle. The vet may suggest an E-Se shot, and then a selenium supplement to keep the Se levels where they should be.
HIGH FAT, LOW CARBOHYDRATE DIET FOR EQUINE POLYSACCHARIDE STORAGE MYOPATHY DEVELOPED BY DRS. ARLEIGH REYNOLDS AND BETH VALENTINE Reviewed by Drs. Kent Thompson and Harold Hintz Caloric requirement of a 900-1000 lb horse is a minimum of 10,000-12,000 calories/day (would increase with heavy work - this diet will provide ~16,000 calories/day)
The average equine diet provides ~4-7% of total daily calories from fat. We are aiming to obtain ~20-25% of dietary energy from vegetable oil; 1 cup of vegetable oil = '2000 calories.
Therefore, 2 cups oil/day = ~4000 calories, which is ~20-25% of daily requirement. Alternativdy: could feed an equivalent amount (16 oz) of a fat supplement such as Vita Flex Fuel Formula (228 calories/ounce) or Fat Pak 100 (Milk Specialty Products, 800 323 4274 ext 1157, ask for Kathy Fleck); rice bran can be fed to supply needed fat, but will require 5 times the volume of vegetable oil or powdered fat.
Potential nutritional deficiencies in a no grain, high fat diet:
Protein: As the amount of hay fed may be decreased to both decrease caloric intake and decrease dietary carbohydrate, a dietary deficiency of protein is possible, and EPSM horses may require a higher level of protein to rebuild and maintain muscle mass. Therefore, alfalfa hay is recommended, along with a small amount of alfalfa pellets to mix with oil and supplements. Alternatively, could feed ~5 lb of alfalfa pellets, and 13 (or less) pounds of timothy hay. Commercial diets such as Purina Athlete and Strategy provided needed protein, Natural GIo does not.
Sodium: Ensure that a salt block is available, or add salt to oil-pellets mixture to increase palatability. Calcium: Requirement should be met by alfalfa hay/pellets, or a commercial diet. Phosphorus: Will be present in hay and green grass - to date we have not seen any problems with phosphorus levels. Vitamin E/selenium: Recommend daily supplement to provide at least 1000 Units of vitamin E/day and 1 mg selenium/day (this is recommended for all horses, regardless of diet, especially in selenium-deficient areas). Comments:
Alfalfa pellets were selected only to act as a substance to mix the oil with. Although they are a good source of protein, calcium, and vitamin E, they are not a necessary component of the diet. Mixing a small amount of "leafy" alfalfa hay into the alfalfa pellet/oil mixture may enhance palatability. For horses that won't eat alfalfa pellets, either a commercial high fat feed (see below), or addition of vegetable oil to drinking water, can ensure that the horse is getting enough daily dietary fat. There should be no difference between vegetable, corn, or canola oil; avoid flax or linseed oil in these high quantities.
Hay requirement, as well as total grain substitute (including vegetable oil) requirement, may be adjusted according to weight gain or loss, and both can be decreased if horse is on good quality pasture. A supplemental vitamin/mineral mix can also be fed according to manufacturer's recommendations.
THE IMPORTANT THING IS TO AVOID CARBOHYDRATES IN THE DIET, AND TO PROVIDE FAT AS AN ENERGY SOURCE! EPSM HORSES REQUIRE DIETARY FAT ON A DAILY BASIS, EVEN WHEN YOU MIGHT HAVE DECREASED THE AMOUNT OF GRAIN FED!
Horses with EPSM seem to be able to take in a tremendous amount of dietary fat following diet change, without a gain in weight. Once the muscle disease has apparently stabilized, however, the same amount of fat may result in increased weight. At this time, the amount of daily dietary fat can be decreased, but not eliminated.
IT IS VITALLY IMPORTANT TO REALIZE THAT, IF YOUR HORSE RESPONDS TO DIET CHANGE, THAT DIET SHOULD BE MAINTAINED FOR THE LIFE OF THE HORSE.
Final diets are summarized below. They include both alfalfa pellet/vegetable oil diets as well as substitutes using currently available commercial diets (unless total calories are indicated, amounts are given for maintenance of a 1000 lb horse, to be adjusted up or down as necessary):
EPSM DIETS Diet I (per day)
5 lbs alfalfa pellets 13 pounds timothy or other grass hay 16 oz vegetable oil (or Fuel Formula or Fat Pak 100) Vitamin E/selenium supplement Trace mineral salt block
Diet 2 (per day) (Have also had success with Blue Seal high fat diets - Vintage Gold & Vintage Racer & Demand - with added vegetable oil.)
4 oz alfalfa pellets 8-10 lbs alfalfa hay 16 oz Fuel Formula or Fat Pak 100 Vitamin E/selenium supplement Trace mineral salt block
Diet 3 (per day)
2-3 lbs Purina Athlete (14% protein, 14% fat) 1/2 -2/3 cup vegetable oil (or 5-6 oz powdered fat) 13 pounds timothy or other grass hay Vitamin E/selenium supplement Trace mineral salt block
Diet 4 (per day)
2 lbs Purina Athlete 1/2-2/3 cup vegetable oil (or 5-6 oz Fuel Formula or Fat Pak 100) 8-10 lbs alfalfa hay Vitamin E/selenium supplement Trace mineral salt block
Diet 5 (per day)
3-5 lbs Natural Glo (Wolcott Farms, 1 800 680 8254, ask for Pat Cassidy). This diet is 20% fat, and therefore no added fat supplementation is necessary, except perhaps for severe cases. (Best if mixed with alfalfa pellets, Purina Athlete or Strategy) 8-10 pounds alfalfa hay (Timothy hay not advised due to low protein and calcium content of Natural Glo) Vitamin E/selenium supplement Trace mineral salt block
Diet 6 (per day)
6 lbs Purina Strategy* (14% protein, 6% fat) 1.5-2 cups of vegetable oil (or 12-16 oz powdered fat) 8-10 lbs (alfalfa) or 13 pounds (grass) hay Vitamin E/selenium supplement Trace mineral salt block Note: Nutrena Compete is similar to Strategy
Diet 7 (per day) - provides 24,000 calories/day, for racing horses and large draft horses
7 lbs Purina Strategy 3 lbs Purina Athlete 1/2-3/4 cup vegetable oil or 1-1.5 lbs rice bran 10 lbs alfalfa hay Vitamin E/selenium supplement Trace mineral salt block
Notes on these diets:
Although the commercial diets (Natural G!o, Purina Stategy, and Purina Athlete) provide a dietary source of selenium, supplementation of selenium at 1 mg/day is still recommended, and is well within the safety limit for dietary selenium in horses.
Alfalfa pellets and all commercial diets should be initially mixed with the horse's previous grain, with gradual decrease in the amount of grain, increase in the amount of alfalfa pellets or high-fat commercial diet, and gradual increase in the amount of fat supplementation.
Purina Stategy and Wolcott Farms Natural Glo seem to be more palatable to many horses than is Purina Athlete.
Some calorie information: Alfalfa pellets (and alfalfa hay) = approximately 900-1000 calories/Ib Purina Strategy = 1500 calories/Ib Purina Athlete = 1900 calories/Ib
Dr. Beth A. Valentine Oregon State University Dept. of Biomedical Sciences College of Veterinary Medicine Magruder 142 Corvallis, OR 97331 e-mail: Beth.Valentine@oregonstate.edu
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Draft Resource Page Comments: DraftChatMeister Updated: 2000-12-20- bk
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Post by roundrockrn on Oct 29, 2009 12:35:01 GMT -5
Thanks for all the advice. Yes she is blanketed most of the time, has free choice local, and has been wormed. I've been considering oil, that sounds like a good idea. I guess I was just concerned because it almost seems like she's still loosing weight after everything I've done. She does seem to have a little more spark in her eyes, she was sooo sad when I got her!
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Post by qhflicka on Oct 29, 2009 12:45:04 GMT -5
This is Pippin. Looks like she could be Bella's twin. She is going on 5 and about 15hh. Has EPSM including the stringhalt, which she has never recovered from. Her mother, Willow, had bad stringhalt when she came to us, but she has hardly any symptoms of it left. Their previous owner got Pippin, her sister Maddie and mom, Willow, off the feedlot. Pippin is susceptible to tapeworm. Her mother and Maddie are not. All three had many episodes of gas colic before coming to us. Drafts colic easily. We have never had a case had them colic while with us though. They are all very easy keepers, prone to obesity during the winter months where they get free choice grass hay and between 2 and four flakes of Alfalfa a day, depending on the severity of the weather. Loose minerals with Se. A half cup of veggie oil on their flakes of Alfalfa hay. (You can work up to 2 cups a day). Grain is not recommended for Drafts ever because it can cause EPSM. - Too high in Carbs, particularly sugars, especially if it has molassis. eg. wet cob. If you have supplements to mix in with grain, use Alfalfa pellets instead. Their hooves are often weak and chip/split easily. Usually down on the heels, long in toes - needing special farrier care.
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Post by qhflicka on Oct 29, 2009 12:59:14 GMT -5
Here is Pippin's sister Maddie.
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Post by qhflicka on Oct 29, 2009 13:03:00 GMT -5
Here's their mom, Willow.
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Post by zebradreams07 on Oct 29, 2009 13:31:13 GMT -5
My senior mare is on a senior diet recommended by Dr. Eleanor Kellon; alfalfa pellets, beet pulp, rolled oats, and wheat bran. Recommended ratio of 2:1:1:1 but I doubled the beet pulp, at least until she's at a good weight. She also gets free choice grass hay, and I custom balance her minerals with poly mineral supplements - I have a spreadsheet that allows me to calculate all of her nutrient levels (my hay has been tested) and with the poly minerals, I can add exactly what she's missing (including selenium, via yeast). Cost works out to equal or less than commercial supplements. I don't know anything about EPSM, but reading that article I would guess that when they say they haven't seen a problem with phosphorus, they mean that the amount they're getting is still above NRC requirements. That doesn't take into account the fact that the calcium is much higher, and the Calcium/Phosphorus ratio is likely very high (target range is 1.5-2.) The reason for the bran in my mare's diet is to balance the high calcium; and she also gets phosphorus in her supplement mix.
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Post by qhflicka on Oct 30, 2009 1:37:39 GMT -5
I did not mean to hijack Bella's thread, but I just need to show you there is life after EPSM. ALL drafts should follow an EPSM diet, anyway.
According to the article above you can feed up to to 2 cups of veggie oil a day. When Bella reaches her optimum weight you will have to cut down on the oil.
Black Beauty, the Percheron in my avatar, was very thin like Bella, had all the symptoms of EPSM except for the stringhalt. He was all tied up from lack of Se. EPSM causes the muscle to waste away, and he was very angular. He also had a huge crest on his neck despite being so thin. The one E-Se (14cc) shot helped get rid of the crest and helped build muscle.
After about three months he gained muscle, became more rounded in appearance (not fat, but muscle), and reached his optimum weight. We then tried to maintain the Se levels by giving him Selenium crumbles.
We also had a chiropractor adjust him and found that he was out in 7 places. After that he could trot and hold his head up at a better angle. We had him adjusted a month ago (after about a year) and he was out again, but only in three places. All horses should be adjusted at least once a year. Costs about $50 - $75.
I also forgot to mention that because of their sheer size/weight/pressure on the hooves, a hoof supplement is recommended for drafts.
Bella will look beautiful all filled out and healthy again. Looking forward to her "after" pics.
And Thank you for rescuing her !!
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Post by qhflicka on Dec 2, 2009 13:25:58 GMT -5
How is Bella?
Its been a month now. I would deworm her again. Maybe with TapeCare Plus. Was her coat really rough, greasy, dry, any bare patches, did she have a cough, lice ? I still think worm overload, especially Tapeworm.
She is going to look gorgeous all filled out.
Flaxen chestnuts are my favorite.
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