"Sinking"

[asmo]

Peyton does something weird after riding. It varies though, so its not every time!

ok anyways!

When Im riding his loin area shivers... so I always try and sit farther up towards his withers but sometimes he will actually spread his hind legs and "sink" with his hind legs. he'll go on tip toes with his hind hooves and just hollow out his back and tighten his butt and sink about 6 inches. I leap from his back when he does it. The first time I noticed it was at a show in march this spring and it was really cold and rainy and it was an outdoor show. I went to set my english saddle on his back and when I had it 1 foot above his back, he nearly hit the ground. My first thought was, crap need the chiropractor... nope! So then I thought maybe he's "cold backed" but then I learned that that is more bucking and cinchy etc.. and hes not. so then the next time was the next day at another show. This time it was warm out no rain etc.. I was able to ride him in about 3 classes, and then he sunk with me on him for the first time. I screamed for my mom who was with me and my friend and jumped off quickly. I checked his back called my chiro and got him out within the week. He had a few Very minor adjustments but he said it wouldnt cause him to do that. So I consulted my vet and he was baffled too. (him and my chiro work together when needed). so I gave him 3 months off (all summer ) and then started riding him about 3 weeks ago. He didnt do it for 2 weeks, (I took it slow) and then I was at a show on the 11th and shivered in the back so I rode the classes but nothing else, and then he started sinking, so I scratched the rest of the show.

I am just as baffled as my vet and chiro. The last time my chiro was out he wasnt out at ALL, and he put both my english and western saddle on, he always checks their fit when he comes because they gain/lose weight, and they both fit great, and he pulled and tugged on them to see if he'd to anything. he didnt. (1 week before he came out robert put my western saddle on and he sunk when he went to grab the bridle to bridle up.)

I am totally confused. And I am willing to anything within reason that I can afford. bloodwork, more chiro, accupunture(sp?), Massage, etc... He is more valuable to me then he is truly worth because he does ANYTHING I ask, flying leads, two track at canter-walk-trot, western pleasure or english, we were taking ALL firsts at the show until I had to scratch. 5 classes - all firsts! I love him and I trained him to do all of this and I dont want to give up on him. He has arthritus but it NEVER bothers him EVER. !!!

Please help!

Pictures from Stockshow (June 3, 2006) I only was able to do 1 class and it was at a track he used to race at so I was worried he would get racehorsey on me, but he was an angel and did the class with grace and the judge was impressed and gave us the highest blue it was my last year of 4-H. so it meant a lot to be able to show him there.

oh and he's gained about 100 pounds since these pics. (he was on the thin side there) And I ride him with 2 pads and an air ride english pad now.

[Just Jolene]

Did your vet do X rays of his hocks, and if so, was there any degeneration?

[asmo]

No I havent done any x-rays, I will have to use the money I get from selling one of my horses. I hate not having the money to do it right now. I am trying really hard to cut back on the amount of horses at my house. Its really hard, I wanted to save that grey TB that was at the feedlot, but I knew I would be able to feed her and rehab her but that was it. so I didnt
... but I will keep that in mind. I will talk to my vet about it also. He is a good vet in the fact that if he doesnt have the answer, he does everything in his power to get the answer for me. Like with Chance and his OCD, He called OSU and WSU and I called Rainland and then he talked to Rainland. and we all came to the conclusion he doesnt have OCD, but my dad refuses to let me use the truck and trailer to go to woodinville (this is why i couldnt take Chauncey to rachelle) I was going to run Chance over when I took Chauncey, and he wouldnt let me take either. So he is just getting to rest now and occasionally go out an about on the farm if I am a horse short.

I am going to say he is not selenium defficiant we already took this route, and it didnt help (both shots and selenium salt)...

Thanks for that possibility Jolene, I will call my vet and see what he thinks about it.

[Just Jolene]

With the older racehorses, sometimes injections of cortisone in the hocks can bring them a good deal of relief...and that's not something you'd really *need* to do Xrays for; you could jut give it a shot. Adequan, also, seems to bring great relief to old racers.

[diamondindykin]

Ok, I am really not trying to be mean here but Asmo, have you ever considered that this horses (and Chances) issues might have something to do with your weight?? To me, you do look a little to big for either of them. Maybe you might consider a draft cross

[asmo]

That is always the first question for both my vet and my chiropractor. and they assure me its not my weight. Chance was born with his leg issue. Its hereditary. Every one of his siblings have got something either in their feet or their legs. and I dont ride Chance hard, never have, always on flat ground, or nice arenas. Peyton, it definately is not my weight, I was double assured of that. Horses can successfully carry 1/3 of their weight, and I am by far not even close to that! so thanks for your concern, I promise I always think of that, my weight is why I dont train horses, I have my cousin train them, even though I am fully capable of doing so. Chance I waited until november of his 3yr old yr. and consulted my vet and chiro first. Peyton has good weight he weighs an honest 1240 lbs and he has good muscle tone and good balance, and I am a very cautious generous rider and am very good about keeping myself balanced in the center of my horse. I also ride with air ride pads both english and western, and I dont ride bareback more than 4 times a year that my weight isnt concentrated.

[gypsygirl]

I think people including vets should remind their clients that not all horses follow the same rule. (We have learned that a few times over now ) The 1/3 of their weight concept may apply to some, but not all. There are examples of people being thrown from a horse over and over for no reason and then someone else, smaller, gets on and the horse is fine. I think horses can be a good judge of what is too much weight and not for them if they have something wrong. Maybe you could lease him out to someone experienced and small and see if the same thing happens on a regular basis??? Have them give it a good amount of time and see. You have enough horses that you can keep busy still and until you get the money to run the necessary tests, then it might be a good idea to stay off of him until you find out. I am uncertain of how your vet can tell you it's for sure not the weight if he hasn't done any testing? Wouldn't he/she need to find a few things out before ruling anything out?

Good luck Asmo and I hope he get's better.

[skemper]

Asmo,

you might want to try posting the question to the HealthyHorse Yahoo Group. The group is dedicated to discussing only horse health issues and the members are pretty knowledgeable.

[asmo]

Thanks Skemper. I was searching around trying to find a horse health discussion group that might help, but I didnt find any good professional ones.

[asmo]

Just curious but I am wondering if it could be his kidneys. I mean he raced from the time he was 2 or 3 until they sold him at the sale (proof of this) when he was 12. couldnt his kidneys be reaping the problems of being fed SO much stuff during his racing days... does this sound like something it could possibly be.

[averyacres]

Maybe weakness in the stifle area? Maybe you can do some strengthening exercises such as trotting over poles to get him to engage his hindquarters and use his back, lungeing with side reins to help him bring his back up w/out you on him, etc.? I would try that for a few weeks with you doing light riding and see if that helps. It sounds like he might be used to carrying the jockeys who weigh not very much and to ask him to do the arena work which can use different muscles and going in circles may cause some soreness...? Just a thought.

[schwung]

The first sign of kidney issue is excessive drinking and peeing. I have a gelding with kidney disease/failure, but I have read that it is actually extremely rare in horses.

[asmo]

I read that too, thats why I am trying to get other ideas. When I take him to the vet this week, I am hoping to go with ideas that we can explore.

I have been slowly building up his back muscles. He will stay collected and rounded at the walk and mostly at the trot, but he still has trouble holding it at the canter. So hes slowly coming.

[Just Jolene]

X-rays are going to be the key here. You've got an ex racer with what? Over 60 starts? 70? I've seen joints suffer career ending injury in less than half that...I would be shocked if X-rays prove this guy 100% "clean legged" and no tendon or bone damage. If he has suffered chips or worse and is "compromised", rider weight can be an issue. It changes when the horse has a "weak spot". My vet recommended for one of our ex racers no rider to exceed 15% of her weight.

[slewgirl]

Hey, did Peyton get a home or did it work out or what?

I cannot determine from this post.........

agree with Jolene.....damage can be done with few starts, few runs.....

I have one of those,...unrideable......stiff and now old.........but well loved!