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Post by schwung on Oct 9, 2006 14:52:45 GMT -5
Long story short, I sent my 18 year old TB gelding out on a lease this summer with explicit feeding instructions, and I saw him yesterday and he is at least 200 lbs. underweight. The barn owner doesn't see it as a problem as "he is a Thoroughbred" and apparantly he thinks they are supposed to be ribby. ARGH - I am beyond furious but that's another story. OK, so I need to get the weight back on him, but there is an additional problem - this horse has kidney issues and his total protein level needs to stay under 10-11%. He is supposed to be (and now will be) getting free-choice grass hay (he cannot have alfalfa), but he has never been big on eating much hay and about the most you can get him to eat is maybe 4 flakes a day. Before he left he was maintaining his weight on 6 lbs. of LMF Showtime "A" formula (designed as a supplement for alfalfa eaters, it has only 10% protein) and 2 scoops of Cool Calories. I plan on working him up to double the grain and Cool Calories but I think he needs more than that to get him to gain quickly. I am thinking about trying beet pulp - as it is only 7% protein and has more energy than alfalfa without making them hot as it doesn't have the sugar, it would be the perfect feed for him. I am reading up on it and I have found different opinions on whether or not beet pulp needs to be soaked, as I was always told it should be. See: shady-acres.com/susan/beetpulp.shtmlIf it doesn't need to be soaked of course it is way more manageable for all involved. I am also going to add stabilized rice bran pellets (11% protein) to add fat. Thoughts on beet pulp soaking? Any other recommendations to his diet? I don't like oil and Cool Calories is a much better and less messy alternative in my opinion.
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Post by schwung on Oct 9, 2006 15:08:23 GMT -5
Also - the beet pulp we picked up is in a pelleted form. The feeding instructions don't say anything about soaking.
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Post by cardicorgi on Oct 9, 2006 15:10:14 GMT -5
I am no expert, but I've read and heard enough anecdotal accounts of choke happening with it unsoaked, that myself, I'd be leary of not soaking it.
MTA - I used the pelleted form for a while, and I soaked it - it only took about 45 minutes for it to really absorb and expand. It is amazing how much volume there is with added liquid!
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Post by averyacres on Oct 9, 2006 15:18:20 GMT -5
I am no expert either, but my concern would be when the beet pulp is not soaked, it expands in the horses stomach, which can be quite frightening, as you can imagine. They might have changed how the pulp is designed from when I used it, so maybe this particular brand doesn't need any soaking. I would also make sure to keep it in a can that no little horsie friend might be able to get into and have a nice snack if it does need to be soaked.
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Post by schwung on Oct 9, 2006 15:18:49 GMT -5
The concern about choke is valid, but if you read the above link its really no different than with any other pelleted feed, which you have to be careful of with a horse that bolts his food or is prone to choke. Crafty is a slow, methodical eater and has never choked before. I think it would be ok?
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Post by clearlybluebreeze on Oct 9, 2006 15:18:51 GMT -5
We always soaked out beet pulp too. We would make enough in the evening for both feedings the next day and just keep it sealed in a container with a lid. Our old trainer would make up two days at a time....but it does tend to attract flies. Even now we give it to Luna in the winter time to help keep her weight on and she loves it warm.....it only takes 20 minutes to soak if you use hot or boiling water. With cold water it takes a couple hours. For Luna it is also a good way to get extra water in her during the winter - if you make it warm and really wet - they tend to like it! (Well she does anyway) Add a shot of maple syrup and they LOVE you! When she sees a steamy feed dish coming towards her on a dark cold wintery night......she really gets excited! We tried rice bran with Toby (thoroughbred) and it made it crazy!!! But they are all different - you never know what will work until you try. But - what a frustrating situation......you must be quite angry!
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Post by rachelle on Oct 9, 2006 15:22:32 GMT -5
Okay Dr. B told me when we got the twins (Saheib and Sircoti) that you really didn't need to soak the beet pulp IF - 1) it was mixed in with other food, like hay, grain, etc. 2) you gave less than a scoop at a time.(Our scoops are under 2 cups though). 3) you started out slowly and gradually built up to the scoop full (like a small handful then only adding a few more pieces each time), the scoop full is usually added to a bucket full of the other feed so there's really not that much in there in comparision. 4) you gave no more than two scoops on any day, hours apart, like morning and evening. 5) you made sure you got the kind without mollasses (I think the last was because of how skinny, weak etc, they were at the time, and the possible kidney issues or other health issues they may have had). 6) he also recommended Allegro senior pellets instead of lots of hay, do the same thing, gradually add in until they get up to a half bucket full a day. (thats one of our buckets, which are 8 quart buckets). 7) anything over that amount should be soaked for 30 minutes or until its nice and mushy, the less you have in the bucket, the less time it takes to soak and get mushy. Those without good chompers should get it mushy. 8) Of course if the horse scarfs the food down, then you should feed the two scoops in 4 to 5 meals a day instead of two, or feed it mushy. I took the above right from my notes from his visit. I have lots of things to do to put weight on that he told me. He spent over an hour here just writing things down and checking our buckets and scoops. Your horse doesn't sound like he needs as much specialty care, just some good weight builder. I've heard great things about the cool calories and the oil both (though the oil is really messy). The allegro senior feed keeps the weight on our old guy (who's 35+ years old) and he doesn't have any teeth to eat hay with (though he still tries). BOSS is also a good weight builder but it is also pure protien, so that probably isn't a good option for this guy. If he has kidney issues try adding apple cider vinegar to his water, just a little in his bucket every day. It helps with circulation and will clean out the 'bad' residues in kidneys and digestive systems, without harming them. I could really go on and on. We mix our own vitamin/minerals here and all our own grain for the horses, birds, and goats. We try to keep everything as natural as possible and I run everything by the vet before we use it.
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Post by cardicorgi on Oct 9, 2006 16:11:10 GMT -5
And don't forget to read THIS article about the hazards of beet pulp... [ftp]http://shady-acres.com/susan/squirrel.shtml[/ftp]
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Post by rachelle on Oct 9, 2006 16:15:20 GMT -5
oh, I love that one, I was searching for the link. It's great!
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Post by asmo on Oct 9, 2006 16:42:51 GMT -5
I was feeding Alfalfa pellets to my mare when she was having trouble gaining weight and I didnt have alfalfa available, and she choked on it. it was the scariest experience of my life. I was literally telling her to hold on and was telling her good bye. Anyways, ever since then I soak ANYTHING that is a bigger pelleted form. Like Safe Choice and most Nutrena feeds are fine, but Beet Pulp (which I give to my thin horses) and Alfalfa pellets. So just from experience I soak.
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Post by jennywho on Oct 9, 2006 17:45:04 GMT -5
Please, please soak the beet pulp. I have seen horses choke from eating dry beet pulp and it is very scary. They won't always choke the first or the tenth time they eat it dry, but eventually they will and a horse that has choked once on something may become more prone to choke the rest of their life. I worked for a guy that fed it dry and about once a week I was sticking a garden hose down their throat with a vet on standby trying to get them cleared out.
All of your ideas for adding weight are great. The other two things you might consider are adding an ulcer preventative such as U7 (I use it on all my TB's as it seems to stimulate their appetities) and a new product that I'm trying called body builder by Equiaide. It's about $30 a month, but I have seen amazing results on my test dummy mare that I needed to get weight on quick to have ready for the January sale.
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Post by rachelle on Oct 9, 2006 19:29:27 GMT -5
Any horse will choke on anything... I've never had a horse choke on beet pulp or grain mixes, but have had many many of them choke on hay. It's the amount and how it's served that makes the difference. No matter how much or how long you soak it the saliva and stomach acids make it expand even more. My son took some to school for a science experiment. The results amazed me, even mushy soupy beet pulp expanded when put in with stomach acids... I never thought that would happen. Surprise, you learn something new everyday. Even the teacher was shocked. I do know they do make a new beet pulp out that is smaller, grain size or slightly bigger, that doesn't have to be soaked, maybe that's the kind that Schwung got? Our feed store doesn't carry it, but they're considering giving it a trial run for us. You don't need to feed a lot of beet pulp to put on weight, so you don't need to feed a lot at once. I agree horses can choke, the first time it happened I had no clue what was happening. Called the vet in a panic, they laughed, patted me on the head and told me how to take care of it. If you're worried about it at all, soak it, but from experience I don't do so anymore unless I plan on feeding more than was reccommended. I've never tried the U7, does it work well with the older guys? Pilchuck thinks my guy might be a bit prone to ulcers but is real unsure about what to feed him because of his age. If we keep him calm he does great, but get him stressed or worked up and he acts weird with food etc... I'd read an article on the U7 but had not found anyone who's used it. Any experience with using it on older ones (he's over 35)?
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Post by pdevlieg on Oct 9, 2006 19:35:03 GMT -5
Horse Journal had a horrid anectdote about using non-soaked beet pulp. I'll see if I can find the story for you. But I would say soak it = it is much better to be safe than regret not making the extra effort. It wasn't choke that was the problem with that horse, the beet pulp expanded in the intestines I believe - huge vet bill and the horses barely survived. Soak it!
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Post by pdevlieg on Oct 9, 2006 19:35:53 GMT -5
Oh yes - I prefer the LMF Prime Time for getting and keeping weight on. I've used lots of the LMF Products and prefer the Prime Time for that purpose.
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Post by schwung on Oct 10, 2006 0:00:52 GMT -5
did you read the attached article? It fairly effectively disputes the myth on beet pulp expanding in the stomach or digestive track. With the amount of water Crafty drinks because of his kidney issues, it seems unlikely.
My filly has choked 3 times on very soft fine orchard grass hay. She did it by bolting her food. Crafty is a careful slow eater where half the food falls out of his mouth - I have a hard time seeing him choke on anything and he has eaten pelleted grain for a large portion of his life. Nevertheless, I did soak it tonight and for tomorrow's breakfast, we'll see if the barn situation will be able to accomodate that going forward.
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