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Post by schwung on May 19, 2009 11:35:19 GMT -5
Because of her tendency to bolt, I would not recommend her as a driving horse.
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Post by fanaberia on May 19, 2009 11:52:33 GMT -5
That would have to be resolved before attaching something behind her. I've seen it work though. It can be a really good skill for some horses, and they really seem to like it once they are okay with it. It really takes a lot of patient and careful training though.
Sera use to be a famous bolter. She also was uncatchable. Her bucking wasn't a worry since she sucked at it, but boy, could she rear. I had the trailer hooked up to take her back several times but ended up just sitting in truck until I calmed down and convinced myself that if I could train her, I could pretty much train any horse to do anything. But that horse really wanted to kill me for a while. Almost a year. ANd then, one day, she just started behaving. Haven't had a problem since. Some of you may remember her from the SAFE show last year. Pretty hard to believe, huh? So there really is hope out there. My previous mare was a bolter and bucker too... and she wasn't even finished under saddle until her very late teens. Ended up being an amazing, rock solid lesson horse.
In my experience, all these horses need is a home where they can have a really personal relationship with one human. And they need to be handled strictly and very fairly. All the time. Then you need to convince them that working as a team is a pretty good deal. They can be the best horses you ever have. But they really need a pretty special situation with someone who has a lot of strength, hope, and experience.
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Post by kdunham on May 19, 2009 12:29:26 GMT -5
I totally agree with fanaberia. And when I said Duane should train all these horses, I really meant all problem horses in general. Not that SAFE needs to send all their horses to him. Horses like this need to be worked hard 5-6 days a week (think sweating profusely) for the first couple months. To really install a new work ethic. 45 minutes 4 times a week isn't going to cut it. Constantly doing something. When they are not being worked they are tied in the arena watching other horses work. Check them up for a while every day when they are not being ridden. Work, work, work. It takes a lot of time at first but is really quicker in the long run. A weird thing I've noticed is that with all my horses when I got them in they would be hard to catch, after a week or so of very hard work they would come walking right up to me in the pasture when I went out to get them. They CRAVE the work. Its what they need. I'm a big Cesar Millan fan because I feel what he says makes sense with horses as well as dogs. Exercise, discipline, THEN affection.
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shekaberry
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Post by shekaberry on May 19, 2009 13:15:38 GMT -5
Jasmine is funny in that, at times, people just don't exist to her. She will just run over you as if you weren't even there, no eye contact or anything. I kind of wonder if there is a point where the horse has been emotionally neglected long enough that there isn't any coming back. Children who aren't emotionally nurtured often show the same super anti-social behaviours being locked away in their own world, I wonder if Jasmine isn't somewhere on that line.
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Post by schwung on May 19, 2009 14:16:10 GMT -5
I don't know much about Jasmine's early history, but I believe Jean had her for 10 years or more, and did nothing with her but breed her (and starve her every winter). I've also been told by people who worked out there that she was completely wild and no one could ever catch her. Somewhere along the line she learned her trick of bolting whenever she doesn't like something that is being done with her, and perhaps that's how she got the scar over her nose, or perhaps someone left a halter on her as a foal and it grew into her face. Jasmine's been tough since we first got her and breaking her was not easy - if you recall it was over a month of just leaning over her back in the round pen and she would buck the person off...day after day. She did eventually progress, but it took a long time. I wouldn't say she is untrainable, but its going to take a lot of time, and you are right, probably one person working with her that she can bond with. If that is even still possible. She's not a mean mare AT ALL. She doesn't want to hurt anyone, she just wants to get away.
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Post by mswan on May 20, 2009 10:28:44 GMT -5
I must say I am not surprised that Jasmine didn't totally give into the idea of riding. In order for that old mare to have survived she had to be self reliant. Humans proved not to be trust worthy many years ago. As soon as the "partnership" of riding turns less than 50% her way, Jasmine equalled the odds or that's what would seem to me. I really enjoyed getting to know this mare while fostering this winter. I wish I had lots of pasture, I would take her in a heartbeat. She has a Royal outlook on the world. I became friends with her and the only time she pulled the "bolt" was when I was taking her back to Jaimes. She walked into the trailer, realized what was about to happen. Backed out nicely, turned and went in the air with all 4 feet and was outta there. Statement..H@LL NO! I'm not leaving! There is someone out there for this grand old mare.
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shekaberry
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Post by shekaberry on May 20, 2009 11:29:30 GMT -5
She will need one person to take care of her. If I had all the money in the world (and land) I'd take her and brush her everyday. So sad that she learned long ago that she couldn't count on people. Makes me sad to think about how badly she was let down.
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Post by cat67 on May 20, 2009 15:59:22 GMT -5
Jasmine is funny in that, at times, people just don't exist to her. She will just run over you as if you weren't even there, no eye contact or anything. "Checking out" like that is scary. I started working with two adult mustangs a few months ago. One of them longes, ties, bathes and is ready to start tacking up. The other is nowhere near as far along because he has that "checking out" behavior. We will do very well and then OMG IT'S A KITTYCAT and he's GONE. The brain leaves the building and he will run right over me to get away from the horrifying kittycat. I have to be "awake" all the time when working with him. I do not ever take my eyes off of him, not even leading. I do not know that you can ever fix that and I have advised his owner that he may not make a riding horse. However, I do agree with KDunham in that a lot of horses need to go out and work too hard to think about bucking. Jon Ensign is another good choice - he will take your horse out to Montana and ride them all day. You know what, after twenty miles or so, the desire to screw around leaves most horses. (But there is a risk that if they aren't fit, they'll become sore or even injure themselves - I wouldn't send an unfit horse off to do that) It's also important that the rider is able to stick, like Jon can, so that the horse discovers bucking is not effective. I cured a very bad bucker once with a mere two rides from a professional bronc rider. Once he realized he could NOT throw his rider, that it failed EVERY time he tried it, he quickly abandoned his attempts. I thought he would figure out that I wasn't the bronc rider and try it with me but surprisingly, he did not. He was just plain fixed...after two rides. Went on to go state 4-H top ten in two events.
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rodeo51
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Post by rodeo51 on May 20, 2009 16:54:06 GMT -5
Ya know...I remember when alot of people said that Whiskey was a dangerous horse and wouldn't able to be trained....and low and behold look what a wonderful horse she has turned into. What would it take to turn Jasmine into a wonderful working partner for someone? There has to be a trainer out there some where willing to take her on and work through her issues.
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Post by winterlakesfarm on May 20, 2009 19:43:18 GMT -5
I am sure Duane would take her on. He specifically deals with these kinds of issues.
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Post by Sara on May 20, 2009 21:47:17 GMT -5
After attending the clinic I think Duane would be great for Jasmine. But, I also respect, and appreciate, that SAFE has invested significantly in her training thus far and already given her 90 days with an excellent, professional trainer. Sometimes in rescue, it is in everyone's best interest to be reasonable about how much can be invested in a given horse. Would the money be better spent getting someone else a solid start? I trust Jaime et al to make that call.
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Post by trillium on May 20, 2009 22:50:37 GMT -5
The wonderful thing about SAFE, and one of the things that seperates them from other rescues, is the fact they try so hard to make sure their horses have every chance available to them.
I am sure that Jasmine has been with a great trainer and I would not mean to disrespect her. I just think each trainer has something to teach a horse. Look at how many trainers Whiskey has been to. I am sure each one was like a building block in her education. She learned something from each of them. Kathleen was the icing on the cake. The finishing touch Whiskey needed.
Jasmine needs more time. She is smart. I may be prejudice, but I think Arabian Horses are very smart and sensitive. She needs to learn people are not bad and she has to learn she cannot buck them off when she is done with her riding lesson. Even if the rider got back on, the fact she dislodged them was what she wanted to do. I agree with Cathy, she needs a rider who can stay glued to the saddle and ride it out. I think if someone could do that a couple of times, I believe she would stop.
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Post by schwung on May 20, 2009 23:06:11 GMT -5
Thank you Sara for understanding our point. Do I believe most horses can be turned around? Yes, but unfortunately, we have our financial limits. Honeycutt is another example where we invested thousands in training and more than one trainer and still got a horse that bucks. We didn't want to give up on him, and we kept trying - one more trainer, one more month. And in the end, it never happened for him. Some horses are very committed to their fears. We have to trust the trainer that knows THIS horse better than any of us at this point, and that trainer has proven her ability to work with our horses. She has started many, many horses, and I trust her when she says that Jasmine is the toughest horse she has ever met (and that includes my mare Tessa!), and she is not sure that Jasmine could be turned around, at least not without changing her outlook on people in general.
I am sorry that disappoints many of you. Many were disappointed when we gave up on training Honeycutt, and probably none more than those of us at SAFE, who love that horse and want nothing more than to see him have his forever home, and here he is, 4 years later, still with us. And we also know this means that we may never be able to find Jasmine a home, and we understand that, and that saddens us as well, because we need Jasmine to find a home so we can fill her spot with another horse in need.
As of right now, our expenses are running about $5000/mo. Take a look at our financials, and you will see that we aren't bringing in that much. The art auction was very successful and brought in almost that much - but that was one month. One month! And doing the board swap with Black Raven is no longer an option for us, which means we are paying for board now - so our training expenses have gone up considerably with just two horses in training at a time. And we still have several more that will need training once Lexi and Rhythm are done with theirs.
So please trust that we don't make these decisions lightly, and we are always acting in the best interest of the horses in our care - all 20 of them. We just can't focus on one horse at the expense of the others.
If you really believe in Jasmine and want her to continue training, then perhaps a separate training fund can be started. I have no problem with that. Or, adopt her and give her a home - the greatest gift she could ever receive.
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Post by leahlady on May 21, 2009 2:05:15 GMT -5
One more thing: bucking is very, very dangerous, for BOTH the horse and the rider. Especially an older horse like Jasmine, she could injure herself trying to get a rider off. We have to ask ourselves, is it worth it to "work the horse through it", not only spending precious finances, but also risking horse and rider every day.
Jasmine is 18 and very set in her ways. SAFE has done an incredible job giving her as much of a foundation as possible. Knowing the mare, her age, and her conformation, it is NOT worth it in my opinion to further invest in training and push her through her issues. I think Jasmine has earned a happy retirement after all she has been through.
No matter what causes the bucking, a horse that has learned it can buck its rider off can only be cured one way: to have a rider that doesn't come off. And it is not a peaceful, relaxing experience. It is the rider convincing the horse that bucking is not the answer. And for a horse like Jasmine, who is probably scared already, that process would be 5,000 steps backwards, and then 1 forwards.
I always talk about how Lady is a reformed bucker, but seriously, I had a highly acclaimed and extremely talented trainer tell me that my horse was much too dangerous and not worth attempting to train. I bought some full leather chaps, bit my lip, and learned how to not fall off. Lady stopped bucking once I got to the point where I could stay on, AND punish her with the crop while she was bucking.
I'm sure that will get some people upset, but in my opinion, bucking to remove the rider is purely behavioral. Obviously, make sure the horse isn't injured and that the saddle fits. Beyond that, bucking is a learned habit that allows the horse to escape what is being asked of him. It is naughty, needs to be punished, and in my opinion, it is not something that can be cured by careful re-starting. It just takes a rider with *alls and a good seat.
I worked through the bucking with my own horse, who I loved and was building a relationship with. But honestly, if I was a trainer, I wouldn't want to risk my neck with dangerous horses. Life is too short and there are too many animals who don't have these issues. (aka, Rhythm and Lexi)
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Post by crimsonlight on May 22, 2009 11:14:40 GMT -5
Honestly, if I had a place for her, I would take Jasmine and just let her be herself. I wouldn't bother with trying to ride her, because like leahlady said, bucking is dangerous for the horse as well. With a mare that old, although it's sad... Sometimes there's just too much to work through. I would love to just groom her every day and let her go play in a field all day long (which, from earlier pictures, she loves to do). If someone who has a place is willing to work with me on financial setbacks (temporarily, until non-recurring bills are paid off), I'll adopt her and give her a place she can live out her days in a pasture.
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