|
Post by dbaldstockings on Apr 23, 2008 13:35:10 GMT -5
Neither black/white pinto SB mare had a dilute parent, so neither carried a dilute gene and neither was Sinatra's dam.
The only known reg. SB possibility is EMMA, as Midsummers Eve was sold over a yr ago and there are no other Reg. SB known dilute mares. His dam could be a boarder's mare or a partbred dilute?
There is no diluting that cuteness factor!! Grand little guy.
Wishing the best, Mary
|
|
|
Post by schwung on Apr 23, 2008 14:03:00 GMT -5
I think the reason that the black/white mares were a possiblity is that they could be smokey black and not true black, but I doubt that is the case. If you go off the purebred horses listed as owned by Jean, it does appear there is no possiblity for a mare (alive or dead) that conceived Sinatra. It is possible that the mare was purebred but never transferred to Jean? She doesn't seem to have kept up with all her paperwork. Another possiblity is that he is partbred, but either way it doesn't appear his dam survived.
|
|
crum
New BB Member
Posts: 49
|
Post by crum on Apr 23, 2008 19:00:39 GMT -5
Has anyone considered that he may actually be the result of a cream and a champagne gene together on a sorrel base coat? He could have received both the cream and champagne from his sire. There is also the possibility that his dam carried a champagne gene and her color was recorded incorrectly, since until recently a lot of registries didn't know how to categorize the champagne modified colors. I suggest this because I had noticed his eyes appear to be pale green in his pictures, which is typical of the cream and champagne combination, rather than the blue of a cremello. If one of his parents is a pinto he may appear to just have pink skin, instead of the mottled skin normally associated with this dilution combination, because of pinto characteristics showing through. I've also heard the mottled skin isn't as noticeable sometimes on the younger horses. I believe the color created by the cream and champagne genes together on a sorrel base color is usually called gold cream.
|
|
|
Post by schwung on Apr 23, 2008 19:04:08 GMT -5
Hmm...his eyes are very blue (no green) and his skin very pink. I would highly doubt he is not double dilute.
|
|
|
Post by dbaldstockings on Apr 23, 2008 19:20:26 GMT -5
Talk about writing before reading...I had meant to say that his dam (of the known SBs) could only be WILLOW, not ther young daughter EMMA! OOOPS!!! Champagnes do not produce the darkest pigment, even in their mottled skin, and often have reddish brownish based skin pigment, rather than the usual slate tone, in addition to the skin mottling. As Seas the Golden Day's other foals appear to have dark skin, and Champagne is rather rare, though not unheard of in SB, I doubt he carried it. This changes smutty palominos to a much clearer yellow as the smuts are lighter, too; Champagnes usually have hazel to green eyes. On black-based horses, the resulting color is the shade of a weimaraner dog, a sort of dove grey -not the color of the pintos. pics of champagne -note the light skin tone and eyes (scroll down) www.cantewindsfarm.com/esoteric.htm
|
|
|
Post by dbaldstockings on Apr 23, 2008 19:29:42 GMT -5
Oh, I own a smokey black mare, and by summer's end, everyone thinks she is a Liver! Smokeys really fade out-of-doors And that rusty-ended mane contrasts nicely with her newly shed coat each year.
|
|
|
Post by dbaldstockings on Apr 23, 2008 19:39:14 GMT -5
Well, I can't seem to get anything right today...There is no proof or likelihood that EMMA is a daughter of WILLOW -sorry.
I promise to think before posting next time.
What I meant to say re: the Black pinto SB mares was that their ancestors were not dilute, thus no dilute gene was passed down, I did check that much.
Sorry, I must have work-related alzheimers or something.
|
|
crum
New BB Member
Posts: 49
|
Post by crum on Apr 23, 2008 21:23:02 GMT -5
Talk about writing before reading...I had meant to say that his dam (of the known SBs) could only be WILLOW, not ther young daughter EMMA! OOOPS!!! Champagnes do not produce the darkest pigment, even in their mottled skin, and often have reddish brownish based skin pigment, rather than the usual slate tone, in addition to the skin mottling. As Seas the Golden Day's other foals appear to have dark skin, and Champagne is rather rare, though not unheard of in SB, I doubt he carried it. This changes smutty palominos to a much clearer yellow as the smuts are lighter, too; Champagnes usually have hazel to green eyes. On black-based horses, the resulting color is the shade of a weimaraner dog, a sort of dove grey -not the color of the pintos. pics of champagne -note the light skin tone and eyes (scroll down) www.cantewindsfarm.com/esoteric.htmNone of the horses on the above link are a gold cream. Here is a link, www.ichregistry.com/angel.htm , to a gold cream for those who are interested. It also has a good picture of the greenish cast to the eyes.
|
|
|
Post by dbaldstockings on Apr 24, 2008 18:00:46 GMT -5
Since we know the SB mares (known) are not champagne gened, that leaves Seas the Golden Day: His dam Denmark’s Fancy Gold is not (check the skin tone): www.palominosaddlebred.com/pals.htmscroll down on the same page, his full sibling Heidi Heidi Ho is not. Which leaves his sire as the possible source of Champagne. While I can’t absolutely rule it out, as I have no photos, It would have had to trace from a solitary dilute path on the dam’s side of his pedigree (Champagne can be seen every generation), As there are no black (could hide a dilute Cr gene) ancestors within 4 generations, Champagne becomes less likely. While offspring registration numbers aren’t exact reflections of genetics since some foals go unregistered, the near 50 /50 ratio of dilute to non-dilute points to a single Cr gene creating the palomino, not the presence of both genes, as that would increase the proportion of “dilute appearing “ offspring to non-dilute upwards to nearly 75%. Now, if Sinatra’s dam is none of the known mares, it is possible she could be a source. I used walkers for pics, as the Champagne gene is more widely found… Here are pics of an Ivory Champagne (champ + Cr+chestnut) TWH, with distinctly hazel eyes. www.thundervalleywalkers.com/puff.htmlChampagne, perlino, and cremello cloud9walkers.com/Babies.htm “Goldilox” a gold champagne (champ+ chestnut) TWH palomino note the pale but not blue eyes, pale eyelashes and muzzle. “Pearli” perlino ( no champ gene, 2 Cr genes + bay) note the creamy mane/tail And 2 cremelloTWH foals –(no champ gene, 2 Cr genes + chestnut) “Flurry and Bocephalus” if you scroll down the same page. Here the tails are more white. Of course, guessing is fun! Sorry that was such a long post.
|
|
|
Post by schwung on Apr 27, 2008 18:27:28 GMT -5
|
|
|
Post by hooti4me on Apr 27, 2008 18:42:33 GMT -5
Yes, he is definately odd looking, but nevertheless very cute!! HE looks so much better!!!
|
|
|
Post by Gingersmom-Tate on Apr 27, 2008 20:18:09 GMT -5
The cremello's are just such rare color, all blue eyed horses look a bit different, but I think he is a beauty, all of the seized horses are.
|
|
|
Post by Sara on Apr 27, 2008 20:49:25 GMT -5
I wonder if there's any chance of pinto markings under all that fur?
|
|
|
Post by fototropic on Apr 28, 2008 8:52:20 GMT -5
I love the curly ear hair. How cute!
|
|
|
Post by safehorses on Apr 28, 2008 13:04:47 GMT -5
I think he's gorgeous! But I'm partial to this little guy. Pam, I love the curly ear hair too...and what a face!!
|
|