|
Post by schwung on Oct 7, 2009 11:53:30 GMT -5
Yes, she was getting ridden walk/trot/canter but I should preface that with the fact that the trainer was being VERY careful about touching her in the mouth at all. She knew it was an issue as she had already thrown herself over on the lunge line. She has gotten more and more resistant to being ridden over time, at first she was fairly amenable to it as long as you didn't touch her in the mouth, now she is objecting to going forward at times and threatening to go up without any provocation or contact on the rein. It is an evasion and when Wishes tries it her ears go back and her eye gets very hard...she is not afraid, although it doesn't mean that it wasn't abuse that got her to this point and caused her to learn the evasion.
|
|
Buena
SAFE Volunteer
No horse will ever teach you as much as your first horse.
Posts: 1,929
|
Post by Buena on Oct 7, 2009 12:15:57 GMT -5
If she's truly that dangerous then it may be time to consider euth. Having been there/done that with my Ariel, there is only so much you can do at a more advanced age. A horse like Wishes is not going to be safe on the ground if she gets panicked. And she certainly won't be able to cross tie or even single line tie. Tip-toeing around a horse like this is just waiting for the time bomb to go off. And her living her life in a constant state of panic and fear is just not fair to her.
Just another option to consider when the time of year and when space is needed for other horses that have a better chance. It would take a truly skilled adopter to take on a horse like this and when SAFE has so many other horses that are better candidates for placement...well... *sigh* It's not a win-win situation at all.
|
|
shekaberry
SAFE Volunteer
SAFE Volunteer Coordinator
Posts: 1,521
|
Post by shekaberry on Oct 7, 2009 12:26:20 GMT -5
I don't recall her being difficult on the ground at all, she was actually quite sweet and easy to handle as long and you didn't jerk on her halter or touch her ears. I didn't handle her a great deal, tho.
Rearers are extremely dangerous to ride, I don't know that it can be "trained" out of them once they figure it out. I know I wouldn't ride a horse that had a known history of rearing. Flipping is a whole other Pandora's Box that can get you or the horse killed.
I would throw in the towel on riding this horse for sure, but as long as she is able to be safely handled on the ground there is no reason she couldn't be another pasture puff. If she isn't safe to handle, then yes, euthanization would be the best option. I have only known one horse in my lifetime that was euthed because he was dangerous; but I don't think Wishes is as bad as he was.
|
|
|
Post by schwung on Oct 7, 2009 12:32:19 GMT -5
Wishes is a complete sweetheart on the ground. You can tie her, groom her, bath her, clip her, handle her feet, and she is a perfect angel. Whether or not it is fiscally or morally responsible for a rescue to warehorse horses that are not ridable but otherwise sound, healthy and handlable but not adoptable is another issue entirely - it is a situation that I think every rescue faces and one that opens the rescue up to extreme controversy one way or the other. It's a lose-lose situation anyway you look at it.
|
|
|
Post by fanaberia on Oct 7, 2009 12:33:28 GMT -5
I don't recall her being difficult on the ground at all, she was actually quite sweet and easy to handle as long and you didn't jerk on her halter or touch her ears. I didn't handle her a great deal, tho. Rearers are extremely dangerous to ride, I don't know that it can be "trained" out of them once they figure it out. I know I wouldn't ride a horse that had a known history of rearing. Flipping is a whole other Pandora's Box that can get you or the horse killed. I would throw in the towel on riding this horse for sure, but as long as she is able to be safely handled on the ground there is no reason she couldn't be another pasture puff. If she isn't safe to handle, then yes, euthanization would be the best option. I have only known one horse in my lifetime that was euthed because he was dangerous; but I don't think Wishes is as bad as he was. My mare (Sera, who was at the SAFE show the last two years) was a big time rearer. The mare I had before her was a rearer and a flipper. It is a very dangerous habit, but it CAN be trained out of a horse, even if the horse is an abuse case. However, not all trainers are created equal in this training skill. But there are some people that are really good at it. I understand SAFE's hesitation in putting more training into a horse that would require a lot when they have plenty of other horses that would benefit more from it. But its hardly a reason to completely give up or put the poor mare down. And I have seen Kathleen's method work. I've used it, I've seen it used, and it's not a bad one. Yes, it's risky. But a lot of things you do with a problem horse are. Maybe it isn't appropriate for Wishes or for SAFE to try, but it's not a bad way either.
|
|
|
Post by cat67 on Oct 7, 2009 12:47:05 GMT -5
I think the question of whether or not to euth is a very personal choice.
I have a mare from the Enumclaw Auction last year that I am not going to get back on. She is very, very frightened of being sat on. Fine on the ground. OTTB. I am open to someone else trying with her, but I have to feel confident they are VERY aware of the risk level and experienced enough to handle it. She is a bucker but she is a fear bucker, not something I think a cowboy who could stick could fix. I doubt a line will be forming. That's just the reality of the situation.
I am considering putting her to sleep. This auction has reminded me that my limited resources could so much better be used on some kind little 3 year old who simply lacks training that I could provide. She will not go to slaughter, which is where she was headed last year, so that in itself is a success. Euthanasia is always a positive outcome when you compare it to slaughter or starvation. I would never fault SAFE or any other rescue for choosing it.
|
|
|
Post by schwung on Oct 7, 2009 12:53:29 GMT -5
It is a personal decision and choice, but when you are a public rescue, everyone has an opinion unfortunately and I have seen other rescues (Day's End being a great example) get ripped to shreds for putting down unadoptable horses.
And Wishes might be rehabilitatable, although rearing and flipping is the single most dangerous thing a horse can do and also the hardest to retrain, especially if the issue is a learned evasion and not a response to fear or pain, but the point is there is a liability issue involved here and if someone were to take her, trainer or adopter, and she flipped and killed someone...well I can't even think about that.
|
|
|
Post by cat67 on Oct 7, 2009 12:59:58 GMT -5
True. That was ridiculous - two overly emotional teenage ex-volunteers off on a crazy smear campaign. Days End does a great job and never deserved that. I do agree that flipping scares the heck out of me - I'm all for trying different methods, and I have seen it successfully cured by a trainer who pulled the horse over every time it went up (in deep sand to minimize the risk of injury). But I also know of a horse who was thought to be cured who repeated the behavior after five years and put someone in the hospital. People have to realize that any seller, including a rescue, can be held legally liable if there is an accident with a known dangerous horse. In the case of my rescue horse, she was adopted out to person A who had colt starting experience and could sit a buck. He really bonded with her and I thought it was going to work out. Then his mom got on her, something I would never have recommended. Now she is being returned. That is the sort of thing that happens and fortunately there were no injuries, but there could have been and so I'm very hesitant about placing a horse I know has major issues.
|
|
|
Post by schwung on Oct 11, 2009 1:39:27 GMT -5
I picked Wishes up today and this morning her stitches were starting to come out again. By this evening, just from grazing all day on my pastures, she had ripped them almost all out and her lip was once again dangling and totally gross. Here's some photos...you can see that part of it just needs to be cut off. I've got a call out to Dr. Hannah to come look. But on a good note, even though we didn't do anything with Wishes today, she loaded right into the trailer without any hesitation! She used to be very bad about trailering so this was a step in the right direction, and at this point, I'll take anything positive steps! That's Haley's nose...she thinks Wishes' lip is gross too but is fascinated by it:
|
|
|
Post by fototropic on Oct 11, 2009 10:10:05 GMT -5
Rearing is a tough one. My daughter's best friend's pony killed herself by rearing and flipping. The pony was about 15 years old and had a history of being light in the front end, but the person who had her was a very experienced rider who just growled at her and went on. Anyway, in this instance, the trainer had been long lining the pony. She had finished up and was leaving the ring. She asked a student to take the pony and walk her to the barn. Without warning or provocation, the pony went up, flipped and never got up. She bled to death while the vet waited for the insurance company to authorize euthanasia. The trainer was devastated, but my daughter's friend's mother put it this way. What if she had lived? Would we ever have felt safe putting anyone on her again? Pam
|
|
|
Post by schwung on Oct 13, 2009 10:38:38 GMT -5
Dr. Hannah came out yesterday and cut off the flap of lip that was hanging. I have a pretty thick skin when it comes to injuries, but this was really gross and very bloody. Ugh. She lost a pretty good chunk of her lower lip. Warning, graphic photos below! Before: Drugged to where she could barely stand (that's what it took to get her where we could mess with it). You do have to love her airplane ears! The chunk she cut off. It looked like a slug: I didn't take any after photos because it was really bloody. It looked good by last night though, I'll try to take a picture today. She doesn't seem too bothered by it and is eating as normal, although she is getting bute and has to start antibiotics again.
|
|
|
Post by mymercedes on Oct 13, 2009 16:57:26 GMT -5
Poor Wishes. Sending my "wishes" for her speedy recovery!
|
|
|
Post by schwung on Oct 16, 2009 18:48:38 GMT -5
I keep forgetting to bring my camera out but Wishes' lip looks so much better without that huge flap hanging down, and I am sure she is a lot more comfortable. She is on antibiotics which she is a good girl and eats right out of her grain. You have to lift her head to see the half-moon shape missing from her lower lip...its ugly but it looks much better than it did!
|
|
|
Post by schwung on Oct 22, 2009 16:26:03 GMT -5
Wishes' lip is healed and it really looks pretty good, and she will require no special care. I am moving her to the available section, although at this time we are only offering her as a companion horse with a waived adoption fee due to her issues under saddle.
|
|
|
Post by queengwennypoo on Oct 27, 2009 22:08:32 GMT -5
You know, if it comes to euthing, I don't see why you shouldn't try all possibilities. I've seen Kathleen's method work, too, although I wouldn't suggest putting the side reins too tight at first, or even on the side. I would put her in a surcingle with the reins going between her front legs and hooking under her girth. That way, the ONLY pressure would be down, not to the sides or anything else. This way she can control the pressure on her mouth, and will find out that the pressure will go away if she gives to it. If you turn her loose in an arena with good footing, I don't think there's much danger of her hurting herself, no matter if she does go over or not. If she's gonna be euthed, there's no point in not trying.
|
|