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Post by schwung on Jan 28, 2009 16:27:23 GMT -5
At least two that I know of. I think Sierra is right, she did reuse names quite frequently. Ironically, I found out later that she called Sasha "Lily" and she also had an Appy mare named "Holly" - she was one of the young Appy mares that died on the Monroe property.
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Post by crownkorhelequest on Jan 28, 2009 16:28:43 GMT -5
Oh for cryin' out loud!! She makes me so dang ILL!!
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Post by crownkorhelequest on Jan 28, 2009 16:32:12 GMT -5
You know Jean USED to have a Website call Virya Paramita that she "showcased" her horse farm and horses on-- Now look at the definition of the words I got from Dictionary.com~~ I get a sick feeling of IRONY HERE!!
vīrya-pāramitā (Skt.). The Perfection of Strenuousness, the fourth of the Six Perfections (ṣaḍ-pāramitā) that make up the central element of the Bodhisattva Path in Mahāyāna Buddhism. The cultivation of this virtue involves unselfish application and effort to benefit others, as well as self-development, often at considerable personal expense. See also vīrya.
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Post by cyann100 on Jan 28, 2009 17:28:08 GMT -5
so one day monster Jean is going to get out of jail. What's to stop her from doing this again????Does she just go back to torturing horses and groups like SAFE have to clean up the mess? As not just a horse lover, but as a citizen, this is an outrage.
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Post by oneidea on Jan 28, 2009 17:36:55 GMT -5
I predict that nothing will stop her. Hoarder recitivism is something like 80% even when people get psychiatric treatment and meds for their compulsion, which I'm not sure she was compelled to do as part of her sentence. OCD meds are sometimes effective for collectors, but almost always, they find ways to procure another collection of animals and abuse them... Of course they always seem to be surrounded by people that enable the behavior too...
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Post by ravenshadowflight on Jan 28, 2009 18:08:37 GMT -5
Coco... That is just sick, sad.. Evil. She let my poor innocent Coco, the colt I watched grow up, just die. It seriously just... There are no words to how sad it makes me feel.
My mistake then, sorry, Kitaro is still unaccounted for.
And Gypsy is, as you're pretty sure, deceased.
And no one quite knows if Coconut was bred by Jean or not.
And she, as I said, reused names countless times. She had a chestnut (going grey) filly while I was there, a daughter of Bintee, who's name is Halo. She also had a number of foals named Sasha.
Does anyone know what happened to Shetland pony KATY from the Monroe property, or the gray mare MAYET? Or RUBY (Black bay grade mare), DIXIE (Sister to Ruby, buckskin tobiano), or Toby (black bay appy POA). There are many horses that I would like to know what happened to if anyone knows.
Does anyone have any registered or call names of horses that are confirmed dead at the scenes besides Coco?
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Post by schwung on Jan 28, 2009 18:11:58 GMT -5
I am on the fence as far as whether or not Jean was a hoarder. She doesn't entirely fit the profile. For one, she was breeding them, and she did sell them (the babies anyway, not her breeding stock but of course she needed them to make more babies). In fact her business model seemed to be quantity over quality, and provide as little as possible in terms of feeding, veterinary, farrier and worming in order to maximize her potential gain. I also don't think she was unaware of the neglect or felt like she was taking good care of them - as she was very calculated in her efforts to avoid getting caught and putting on pretenses of providing good care when needed. I don't think she had visions of grandeur that she was the only one who could provide for the animals as well as she could.
I am more inclined to think of her as far more pathological in that she knew exactly what care her horses needed, but she was too cheap to provide it (that, and I think she hit a point when her horses were no longer selling and then she was in financial crisis, making the problem even worse), and she was too proud to ask for help. Her ego got in the way of the best interests of the horses...in fact, she even admitted as much at the sentencing. I am not sure there is true mental illness there - although she must be somewhat not right in the head to be able to look away as her horses starved to death right outside her window.
If Jean truly isn't a "hoarder" by definition, does that make her less likely to offend again? I am not sure. I hope so.
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Post by schwung on Jan 28, 2009 18:50:53 GMT -5
The horses confirmed dead on the Monroe property were Coco, Halo, and Holly (a young brown leopard appy mare), who was pregnant at the time (I don't know Holly's registered name), as well as two boarded horses, that were named Howie and Fawn. Another boarded horse, Phantom, had to be euthanized the day after being removed from the property. Also victims from Monroe were Ella, Jasmine's foal that died a few months after the seizure, and Jag, a 2 year old Appaloosa colt that was euthanized by the county about a month after the seizure.
On the Carnation property, we do not have the names of the deceased horses, but we are 99% certain two of them were Gypsy (Olympic Spirit), and Opera (Shell Game). We believe one of them was probably Aurora, a young Appaloosa filly. The fourth dead horse is unknown, it was another bay/chestnut mare, older.
At one point in time I had a spreadsheet of every horse I was told that Jean owned or bred and interviewed several people trying to find out what happened to them. I do not know what happened to Kitarios, reg. name DW Katar. He was, by the way, Amber's (O Bahira Magidaa) sire as well as the mare Mayet's (Zhura Mai Mayet) sire. Mayet is deceased, although the circumstances of her death are suspect. One worker said she got very sick and died suddenly, and Jean told her she died of cancer. I don't know what happened to Katy, the palomino mini, but I was told she belonged to Jean's nephew. She was not there at the time of the seizure.
BTW - looking through my notes there was a third "Halo" - this one not related at all to our Haley, but was a bay arab mare out of La Zhara. The story I got (from two different sources) was that she died after breaking both front legs after getting caught in a lead rope. There were no witnesses to this event, and Jean told people she had "brittle bone disease".
I don't have any info on a Ruby, Dixie or Toby. You had previously mentioned a Sara, and I have a Sera (Sera Flair), and if its the same horse (also a chestnut arab mare), she is not dead and was bought by a girl named Cecili Maltos that posted a few times on this board. She also had Sea of Wisdom (Wizzy) from Jean who is Sinatra's dam. Cecili used to work out there also, maybe you knew her.
I had Canyon on my list but do not know what happened to her, she is supposedly out of Sera Flair. Sea Spirit (Lovely Sea Spirit), Gypsy's 1999 foal, was sold. I don't have any info on Rohan or Romeo, but Romeo might be the unnamed Coco/Canyon foal that died at 2 months old after "getting caught in a fence".
I have a Binty listed, but the registered name (which might be incorrect) is BF Bint Bataa, and she is listed as a 1987 arab mare. I have her down as sold in 2006.
Shari, or Shoshana Shari, was a 1991 gray arab mare and the dam of Amber (Bahira). Jean told people she was leased out or sold.
Maybe you can help me fill in the blanks on some of the others on my list. The numbers were staggering, but what was even more shocking is the number of unexplained deaths or deaths under very mysterious circumstances.
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Post by fanaberia on Jan 28, 2009 19:20:26 GMT -5
Shari, or Shoshana Shari, was a 1991 gray arab mare and the dam of Amber (Bahira). Jean told people she was leased out or sold. Jamie, AHA has Shoshana listed as exported to Canada. I don't have my datasource anymore, but Megan (Sasha's owner) may still have the info as I gave it to her. But it really does look like she was sold/leased.
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Post by crownkorhelequest on Jan 28, 2009 19:54:50 GMT -5
OMG, How could someone look out at their property everyday at the rotting mess they were leaving and think that was either normal or OK?
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Post by coconut on Jan 28, 2009 20:12:20 GMT -5
ok....I'm trying to process everything in my head right now.... What I can say with some degree of confidence is that Coconut was aged at 10-ish by my vet in November of 2006. She was advertised as 12 at that time but I put little faith in anything written in that ad. As I've said before, I didn't even believe the horse I was shown was even the same horse. I think that would make her a 1994-1996 foal, right? If my vet is right she is probably 12 now. Wouldn't that make her too old to be Kitaro's daughter? Jean told me that she unsuccessfully tried to register Coconut. I didn't ask exactly how she tried but the look on her face and the emotion she put into the statement led me to believe that she really tried and really wanted to use Coconut in her Arab breeding program. She had a very wistful or regretful tone. She went as far as to say that because she was unsuccessful at the registration attempt she could only register her foals as half Arabs. But it was clear that she had intended to at some point. That fact, and what we have learned from the folks that have known Jean suggest that at least in Nov 06 she was still trying to keep color going and bloodlines flowing. OF COURSE we know about the pasture accidents & boarding bonuses but I truly got the impression that Coconut was being banished from the herd because of the inability to produce register-able foals. Plus I'm sure Jean was already having financial difficulties. Coconut was disposable...which if Jean was truly a hoarder she wouldn't let any horse go & would have bred pretty horses just to have more. My opinion is that she was very clear on her "program" and she knew exactly what she was doing when she bred more. She purposely did not have equine professionals out to her place because she knew what would happen if she did. She'd have to answer to why she was doing things she knew she shouldn't!! I think she thought she knew better than most others anyway, especially in terms of bloodlines and breeding. I've been told by more than one individual that she threw around just enough information to give the impression that she was an expert in the field but every single time she failed in some way to fulfill that fantasy. I have yet to meet someone who says "I'm so surprised" that Jean turned out to be a card-carrying, orange jumpsuit-wearing, horse neglecting criminal (and those are the nicest words I can think of to describe her). Someone early in my search suggested that the boarder in question may have been related to Jean or someone who Jean had sold Coconut to previously but kept her boarded on the pasture & transferred ownership to the new person. In my records I did print out an ownership report for a grey Arab mare that was foaled on 7/6/1996: Darfiza Al Badi who was reported as sold by Jean to a buyer in Startup, WA. I've never tried to contact that person but I do have a PO Box that I could try. Perhaps I will do that this week, just verify that she currently owns the horse in question & get it off my list of possibilities.
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Post by oneidea on Jan 28, 2009 20:16:11 GMT -5
Whether she is clinically a hoarder or simply an animal abuser, the outlook is bleak... the most effective tools in reducing recidivism for all types of animal abusers is a combination of incarceration, psychological treatment and a ban on pet ownership. Did Jean's sentence include all three? Not sure. Anyways, I think recidivism (not only other instances of animal abuse, but also human:human violence and other criminal activities) is somewhere in the high 70% even without the hoarder pathology.
Which almost guarantees that Ms. Elledge will victimize someone - animal or human - again. An appropriate sentence would be something like M. Vick got... 23 months imprisonment (out of a 5 yr max), 3 years of parole, and mandatory restitution to the tune of almost a million $.
In the Elledge case, a longer sentence and parole would keep her under the watchful eye of law enforcement, and if they mandated a hefty restitution for the care of the horses she produced, it might have kept her poor enough to not be able to afford to procure more.
Garnish the crap out any wages and keep her on a short financial and physical leash!!
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Buena
SAFE Volunteer
No horse will ever teach you as much as your first horse.
Posts: 1,929
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Post by Buena on Jan 28, 2009 21:15:22 GMT -5
ok....I'm trying to process everything in my head right now.... What I can say with some degree of confidence is that Coconut was aged at 10-ish by my vet in November of 2006. She was advertised as 12 at that time but I put little faith in anything written in that ad. As I've said before, I didn't even believe the horse I was shown was even the same horse. I think that would make her a 1994-1996 foal, right? If my vet is right she is probably 12 now. Wouldn't that make her too old to be Kitaro's daughter? Jean told me that she unsuccessfully tried to register Coconut. I didn't ask exactly how she tried but the look on her face and the emotion she put into the statement led me to believe that she really tried and really wanted to use Coconut in her Arab breeding program. She had a very wistful or regretful tone. She went as far as to say that because she was unsuccessful at the registration attempt she could only register her foals as half Arabs. But it was clear that she had intended to at some point. That fact, and what we have learned from the folks that have known Jean suggest that at least in Nov 06 she was still trying to keep color going and bloodlines flowing. OF COURSE we know about the pasture accidents & boarding bonuses but I truly got the impression that Coconut was being banished from the herd because of the inability to produce register-able foals. Plus I'm sure Jean was already having financial difficulties. Coconut was disposable...which if Jean was truly a hoarder she wouldn't let any horse go & would have bred pretty horses just to have more. My opinion is that she was very clear on her "program" and she knew exactly what she was doing when she bred more. She purposely did not have equine professionals out to her place because she knew what would happen if she did. She'd have to answer to why she was doing things she knew she shouldn't!! I think she thought she knew better than most others anyway, especially in terms of bloodlines and breeding. I've been told by more than one individual that she threw around just enough information to give the impression that she was an expert in the field but every single time she failed in some way to fulfill that fantasy. I have yet to meet someone who says "I'm so surprised" that Jean turned out to be a card-carrying, orange jumpsuit-wearing, horse neglecting criminal (and those are the nicest words I can think of to describe her). Someone early in my search suggested that the boarder in question may have been related to Jean or someone who Jean had sold Coconut to previously but kept her boarded on the pasture & transferred ownership to the new person. In my records I did print out an ownership report for a grey Arab mare that was foaled on 7/6/1996: Darfiza Al Badi who was reported as sold by Jean to a buyer in Startup, WA. I've never tried to contact that person but I do have a PO Box that I could try. Perhaps I will do that this week, just verify that she currently owns the horse in question & get it off my list of possibilities. Jet, if you think that Coconut is THAT horse, then that horse would have DNA on file with the registry and they could do a cross-check against it to confirm or deny the match. Right?
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Post by fanaberia on Jan 28, 2009 21:23:35 GMT -5
[/quote] Jet, if you think that Coconut is THAT horse, then that horse would have DNA on file with the registry and they could do a cross-check against it to confirm or deny the match. Right?[/quote]
Not necessarily. Not ALL horses are DNA typed, some are just blood tested. However AHA does have a description of markings available on Datasource that could easily identify a horse. Or you could call them and mention the horse in question as well as Coconut's markings to see if they match.
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Post by ravenshadowflight on Jan 28, 2009 22:21:11 GMT -5
Schwung, the horses I know that you know are:
Sera Fleir, "Sera" she is Canyon's mother. She was an amazing horse. it's wonderful to know she got out of there.
DW Katar, "Kitaro/Kitarios", he is still unaccounted for, though with how horrible his condition always was I suspect that he is deceased.
Zhura Mai Mayet, "Mayet". I was there when that filly is born. Another sad death for me, this little baby used to sleep in my lap when I was graining the other babies.
Katy, the shetland, yes she was owned by Iden, her nephew, who used to beat that poor pony senseless. I had lectured him numerous times on not flogging the poor animal when it wouldn't behave. She was a wonderful babysitter to the foals.
Halo, maybe this third Halo you're talking about is the filly I knew back when I worked there. She said something had happened to her but would never say what exactly.
BF Bint Bataa, Binty, I am so glad to know this mare was sold. She went through hell when I was there. Cruel people riding her, an ordeal where she was stuck in the mountains without her foal for a whole night because she got stuck and was too tired after getting her out to make it home. I am glad she had a happy ending.
Shoshana Shari, Sharry, was the mother of a foal that she also called Bahira that is the filly whom died from aniphalactic shock right in front of me after Jean gave her a shot on penicillin in the neck.
She's reused names so many times, it's hard to know about the actual animals that were there past and present if they had the same name.
I do hope I can find out something about Ruby, Dixie, and Toby,
There were two donkeys, anyone have any information on them?
Schwung, is is possible to compile another complete list of who was seized, who died, and who go adopted/sold since 1995? I know it's a lot to ask but I'd really love for my sister and I to get a bit of closure on the animals we knew an loved.
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