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Post by fanaberia on Oct 21, 2009 19:55:17 GMT -5
Trillum- I couldn't agree with you more. I agree with every point you made, as a matter of fact.
If you are around N. Seattle sometime, please stop by and meet my boy:-)
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Post by schwung on Oct 21, 2009 20:02:59 GMT -5
Well said. The way I think of it is this way. From a seller's perpsective, very, very little of anything is selling right now. Even the well-bred, well-trained, high-dollar warmbloods, and certainly not much in the way of young stock. It is a buyer's market, and if you want to buy, whether you are looking for a trail horse, a western pleasure horse, a dressage horse, a jumper, a kid's horse...you can find tons of them for sale without having to drive very far and you can find them at very good prices for what you would have paid for the same horse 5-10 years ago. Thus I really do think it would do the ENTIRE horse market good to take a rest from breeding...no, I know it won't happen, but I don't think we are in any danger of running out of horses for people to buy! Just remember, if the nicely-bred, nicely trained horses are being sold for $500-2000 what chance do you think your unbroke or mediocre grade horse has of finding a good home? There is just NO NEED TO BREED WHAT YOU CAN'T SELL. Want to make money on horses? Buy cheap, unbroke horses, train them, resell. This ONLY works if you are actually a talented trainer and can turn them around quickly, and if you are an honest and scrupulous seller that matches clients and horses well (as the horse world is small, a bad reputation will ruin you), that you completely rehabilitate the horses, provide all vet and farrier care and are honest about the horse's limitations. If you are good, you might be able to occasionally make enough to cover the purchase, vetting, feed and farrier costs you put into the horse plus a small profit. However you will also frequently end up with a horse with issues you can't fix and can't sell and have to cut your losses. But for the few you manage to sell you would at least be doing the horse a service and improving his chances in the world.
I really don't have a lot of trust for anyone who tries to make money trading or breeding horses, especially if they are trying to make a living out of it. Greed is an ugly thing.
If someone wants to keep a stallion as a pet or a show animal for whatever reasons and not breed him or sell him, and that stallion is not getting loose and accidently impregnating mares or tearing down fences or threatening other horses/people/etc, then I don't see an issue with it (although, I will roll my eyes if I hear its because they can't stand the thought of taking away his "manhood" or some such crud).
And if by some miracle of miracles someone took this free arab stallion, trained him, began campaigning him and winning at a National level in multiple disciplines, thus making him as valuable an animal as the few truly top-quality stallions there are in the world, and there was a high demand to breed to him amongst those in his breed nationally (and by that I do not mean some local 4H kid wants to breed her mare for next year's 4H project but people who are actually requesting shipped semen from all over the country), then by all means do so.
I highly doubt that is going to happen.
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Post by mytwoponies on Oct 21, 2009 20:14:52 GMT -5
I was not going to step on my soap box.. but now I'm going to because there is just too much to say (I'm a Gemini).
I have also show & owned Arabians for going on over 20 years now (in fact I'm heading to nationals to help my friends tomorrow). I have also rescued & re-sold well bred, registered "project" arabians from heading to auction because I knew their fate.
People will only pay what they think something is worth. That is what set's the value of anything.
Arabian bloodlines alone does not do much. I have several friends who are long time breeders getting out due to health reasons and they can hardly give them away. They are by national champions, out of champions but not trained or started. I also have another friend who is breeding a few unknown & unshown horses. We get into many heated discussions because while I know it's her dream to breed horses and own a stallion, they will just not magically end up in those glorious show homes. That is just the sad fact. It takes a serious investment and a serious business plan. The friends I am going to nationals with have a stallion that sold out of his limited breedings this year by March, even before he hit the ring. They have sold quite a few horses (including the one's they bred) this year for top dollar. It's because they invest heavily in only superior performers and follow the demand.
Now like Cat said, a barn that produces 50 babies a year is flooding their own market. It's NOT the first Arabian farm that has done that here. I have been to some barn auctions and watched horses sell for $500 each. I don't get it either.
So a stallion being passed off on craigslist all year for hardly anything is well... not really worth anything. Neither are his offspring or he would have been snatched up. The people have already spoken! Now if he were a nicely mannered, cute gelding that quietly goes on trails- then he would have had a much better chance.
I disagree that a lot of Arabian show people want flashy stallions. Performance geldings are often worth more. Two of the top trainers Gene La Croix & Mitch Sperte have always gelded everything that comes into their barn unless it's something absolutely exceptional.
I am in the opinion that one should only breed proven, superior animals under a business plan. Doing any kind of discipline or competition uses the horses mind, manners, skill & sound conformation. Ribbons and awards are absolutely important because that means the horse has been trained, properly presented & judged to the breed or competition standard. Their owners have invested care, time & money into them in order to prove they are worthy of being breeding animals.
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Post by schwung on Oct 21, 2009 21:57:22 GMT -5
Here's another point. To make money standing a stallion you need to sell breedings, not foals! You will LOSE money breeding...I know top quality warmblood breeders that lose money breeding their own mares. Why? Because if you start adding up the costs of getting the mare bred and pregnant, feed and mare care for 11 months, vet, feed, farrier, inspection fees, breed shows, and ultimately training because unless you sell the foal in utero or shortly after birth you are going to have a hard time selling until its riding age and started under saddle. And to sell breedings successfully, you need to not be just doing live cover on local mares, but be collecting and shipping semen all over the country. If you aren't doing all this, then guess what? You are a backyard breeder.
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Post by trillium on Oct 21, 2009 22:23:13 GMT -5
In my opinion, the only people who make money with horses are the ones who stand stallions. They charge the mare owner for all expenses if the mare is boarded at the studs barn. This includes handling the mare and board for feed, vet calls, etc. If you have your own collection dummy, you do not have to send out for that either. Now if they have mares of their own they are caring for, all money made from stud fees is probably lost back into mare care. The large financial burden for a foal is carried by the mares owners.
I also do not like the the fact that one stallion can cover potenially a gillion mares via AI. That is one reason we have so many throw away babies. The popular stud of the moment creates a whole bunch of un-unique babies, then breeders move on to the next best thing. I wish all breeds would require live cover. That would create more diverse gene pools in breeds.
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Post by schwung on Oct 21, 2009 22:41:16 GMT -5
I see your point Laurie, but I still disagree. I think that AI has actually allowed for more diversity in the gene pool....for a mare owner, instead of just being able to consider local stallions, you can choose any stallion, anywhere. And even if you live in the backwoods of Wisconsin you can still have access to those top quality stallions. I've only bred once in my life (and not ever again) but I researched hundreds of fantastic warmblood stallions and had several videos sent to me, and in the end, picked the one that I liked the best that I felt would best compliment my mare the most. I think the days of having the "stallion de jour" are in the past now with AI available. I think that the TB breed lacks genetic diversity because of the high cost of breeding due to the live cover requirements. Not many people can afford to ship their mares across the country so they go with whatever the most popular local stallion is.
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Post by glapaints on Oct 21, 2009 23:04:55 GMT -5
PS, I still want to see a picture of how Exxtra Perception looks. So if you are training him, how about a photo? This was right after he was turned out and rolled four times. He wasn't as skinny as I thought he was going to be but it was easy to tell he hadn't been worked with.
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Post by fanaberia on Oct 22, 2009 0:07:14 GMT -5
Here's another point. To make money standing a stallion you need to sell breedings, not foals! You will LOSE money breeding...I know top quality warmblood breeders that lose money breeding their own mares. Why? Because if you start adding up the costs of getting the mare bred and pregnant, feed and mare care for 11 months, vet, feed, farrier, inspection fees, breed shows, and ultimately training because unless you sell the foal in utero or shortly after birth you are going to have a hard time selling until its riding age and started under saddle. And to sell breedings successfully, you need to not be just doing live cover on local mares, but be collecting and shipping semen all over the country. If you aren't doing all this, then guess what? You are a backyard breeder. And sometimes, there's no shame in that. Very good example: KHEMOSABI, the great arab stallion was bred by backyard breeders. They had a nice mare, that they showed, bred her to a nice stallion they thought would compliment her and created a legend. Khemosabi went on to produce thousands of foals, which in turn produced an exponential amount of grand-foal, of which maybe a handful were worth breeding too, but a bunch were bred anyway because he of the Khemo line. If his babies had been bred with the same care that Khemo was originally bred with, I'm sure there would be a lot less french horsey appetizers in Paris right now. Sheila Varian, although not anything close to a backyard breeder, also breeds pretty selectively. Her studs are all quality, all shown, and all critqued for conformation AND disposition. And they're NICE; as a matter of fact, I got to go to the barn this summer. And low and behold, she does make money on foals (more than breedings, I would assume from prices and records). On top of that, her "babies" aren't allowed to leave until they have a chance to grow up. I don't think in those situations breeding is bad. You have to do it with care, love, and knowledge. But also, lets not forget that stallions don't necessary have to be bred, and stallion owners aren't necessarily looking to sell breeding. (I have been offered two breeding for Khramer, declined both even though the money would have been nice). Maybe growing up in Europe gave me a different perspective; we seldom gelded our colts; generally it was the horses that drove in teams that would get cut. I took lessons on stallions, and often they were head to butt with mares. There is hope:-)
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Post by fanaberia on Oct 22, 2009 0:20:16 GMT -5
.... and before someone beats me to it:
I know there aren't many people that can own a stallion "successfully" and much, much fewer than that who can breed successfully. But it doesn't mean it doesn't happen, and it doesn't mean that people who lovingly and carefully breed SMALL amounts of horses that exhibit true quality don't exist.
I do believe that most people have stallionophobia. Some of it can be well-founded (I was at a show in August when a girl riding a really poor quality grey are went through the grounds yelling "clear the way, stallion!" and went into my class. I wanted to whack her upside her 18 year old head. And then tie her to the side of my trailer so she could stare at my stallion for a behavior example.) But there really are a lot of nice stallions out there that do behave themselves that are both shown, and ridden in the backcountry.
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Post by zebradreams07 on Oct 22, 2009 0:39:38 GMT -5
Regarding AI, I think Jaime and Trillium are both right in a sense. The actual process of AI does give mare owners more options, and allow genes to be spread across the country. The blame falls on the stallion owners who take advantage of this and accept breedings to those gillion mares, rather than offering a limited number of live OR AI breedings.
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Post by schwung on Oct 22, 2009 10:07:43 GMT -5
This has absolutely nothing to do with having "stallionophobia". This is about irresponsible breeding, remember?
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Post by cat67 on Oct 22, 2009 10:57:31 GMT -5
I also do not support the idea of a rescue run by someone that also breeds. Well, you and I have bred the exact same number of horses - one. The difference is, the one I bred has an extensive and successful show record, and can be ridden and handled by children. Absolutely! There has to be a CLEAR difference. For example, Shawna of SOS has a stallion that went to the World Show. That is not easy to do - you have to qualify and it's a very expensive process. He has a great disposition and is roped off of and gamed by her teenage daughter. I see no contradiction between Shawna having five-figure rope and barrel horses and also having a rescue. There is no comparison. At the same time, let's say Shawna does find some mare with a AAA speed rating and an extensive PRCA barrel record at the feedlot. I wouldn't fault her a bit for keeping it as a broodmare. I would figure that was her lucky day and the mare's. And not everybody who has a (potential) breeding animal is looking at it as a source of income. Mine is a source of expense and I expect him to stay that way. I'm not going to quit my job and just pimp out my horse to anybody with cash in hand, and neither are most stallion owners. It's true that you come into contact with the worst of the worst in rescue, but it is not fair to assume they are the norm.
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Post by fanaberia on Oct 22, 2009 11:28:18 GMT -5
This has absolutely nothing to do with having "stallionophobia". This is about irresponsible breeding, remember? Yup, like I said many, many times; it's possible to own one and not breed them. I don't think anyone has piped up yet wanting to run around and cover mares. Speaking for myself exclusively, I want to and will breed my mare. I currently have NO desire to breed my stallion. I also have no desire to geld him either since I have no problem managing him, its not slowing his training, I like showing in the stallion division when there is one, and I like the stallion look. You have focused several threads on him being bred, so much so you actually told me that I am breaking my adoption terms (which don't even exist). I have had horses for a long time, all mares, and I do not have one foal out of any of them. As a matter of fact, when I decided I wanted a baby related to my old mare, I found one on datasource (which ended up needing to be rescued) and just went ahead and bought her. Not recognizing that someone may want to have a stallion for reasons other than breeding, and not recognizing that stallion can be just like any other horse is stallionophobia.
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Post by cutiepiepmu on Oct 22, 2009 15:40:39 GMT -5
Certainly do not want to get tangled here - but IMO - having owned stallions- world class stallions - I LOVE stallions who are raised right - (not made into breeding monsters that lack social skills outside of breeding a mare)- and NO stallion should be bred, for ANY reason without DNA to rule out genetic issues and a SOLID performance career(not local 4-H or fair shows) What I can say with 100% certainty...
A GOOD stallion - makes a GREAT Gelding.... point blank.
Sara
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Post by winterlakesfarm on Oct 22, 2009 23:22:39 GMT -5
I can tell you that no matter how cute this horse is there is NO market for him and NO market for any babies he would produce.
I was in 2 professional arabian barns in the last few days and nothing, and I mean NOTHING, is under 15.2hh and competative. All of the horses there were big. They are not competative in todays show world unless they are big.
When I was showing it was a big deal for a horse to be over 15hh. My half arab I showed at nationals was 15.1 and he was a big horse at the time. I rode a 16hh purebred and he was a freak 25 years ago. You just did not see them.
The arab farm I managed imported a stud for a million dollars from Poland and he was an honest 16hh. That was 10 years ago and he was big at the time. Now he is "average". I walked through Ron Copple's barn a couple of years ago and asked him "Where did all the size come from? Russian? Polish?" and he just laughed. It was a real eye opener to me.
Honestly part of me is sad they are all so big. They are outside the breed standard unless they changed it.
The trainer that has Gossip right now has an arab that is 15.2hh and he is the SMALLEST in his classes at arab shows.
Arabs are getting big. The trend is for big purebreds and bigger partbreds. There is NO market for small arabs except the one that Ron has the first Sunday of every month.
Endurance folks do not care as much and certainly the "family" horses are smaller but as an unbroke stud in his teens this horse does not qualify. There are only so many endurance and family arab homes and trust me they can easily be filled with the over abundance of backyard breeders that are currently out there.
Please do not breed this horse. He is lovely but there is no market for him or his babies. If he is bred you might as well drop off the baby at the auction because dollars to donuts that is where it will end up in the next few years.
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