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Post by zebradreams07 on Oct 26, 2009 15:10:11 GMT -5
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shekaberry
SAFE Volunteer
SAFE Volunteer Coordinator
Posts: 1,521
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Post by shekaberry on Oct 26, 2009 15:59:19 GMT -5
I think most rescues are anti-breeding what there already is a million of i.e. Quarters, Paints and Arabs.
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Post by trillium on Oct 26, 2009 16:51:37 GMT -5
"I, myself, will not be breeding the Arabian stallion. He is sold to a lady friend of mine in Eastern Washington. She will make whatever decisions she makes. I've expressed my concerns and she's taking them into consideration. I can't force her to do anything. " No, but you could have sold her a nice GELDING. The world does not need more unremarkable arabians. There are plenty on Craigslist or at the auction. I sold him before I went and got him. I told his owner that was the only way I could take him is if he had a home before I picked him up. I find it odd that you could sell a free horse before you even got it. Did the new owner not know it was a free horse. And did the woman who you picked him up from know you were going to sell him even before you took possession?
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Post by caddyshack on Oct 26, 2009 16:58:21 GMT -5
You’re right I don’t know you but I posted based on what I’ve seen you personally post on here and your website. First of all, just to clarify, I don’t want people to think I’m an extremest anti-breeder person. I just have really high standards for what I think should be bred. For example I have a good friend who breeds one foal every few years. She has a beautiful facility, the funds to provide excellent feed, vet care, etc. Has the time and expertise to train and raise her foals and they are high quality horses that find high quality buyers. I have no problem with that.
I also know you are a horse trader and if that is your business you’re probably driven by profits vs the horses well being. “It really depends on the horse. I usually buy a horse, bring it home, give it a couple days then start working with it in a round pen. I don't sell them (with the exception of two) unless they are green broke at a minimum and are easy to handle. So some horses stay for a week, others a couple months. Two mares from the auction I plan to keep for show so they won't be going anywhere for a while. Note: I wanted to add that unlike SAFE who rescues, rehabs and places horses, I don't consider myself a rescue at all. Each and every horse purchased at the auction is inventory (and as harsh as that sounds, they aren't treated as if they are inventory). I have a business license as a Horse Trader in Peirce county. So I by no means go to the extent that Safe does in home checks and reference checks and what not. We check homes but we buy, consign and sell horses not rescue rehab and place them. Even though some cases we get from auction for resale seem to be a rescue/rehab.”
On your stallion page I see NO training or showing record for that horse and no pictures of him even being ridden. What I’m seeing is a lot of plans: plans to breed, plans to train, plans to show, etc.
Here’s what I mean about the breeding: Your palomino bought from auction: “She will be bred to Blu Eyed Handsome Man in February for a 2011 foal.” Paint mare: “Currently in foal to Coasters Easter Cwboy, a Cremello Tobiano Stallion located in Oakville, WA for a 2010 foal. (Foal will be sold.)” Another auction horse: “We sold this mare but her owner was nice enough to allow us a breeding season with her. She was bred in May to Blu Eyed Handsome Man for an April 2010 foal. This foal may be available for sale.” Another horse: “This beautiful mare is going to be staying with us for two breeding seasons while her owner finishes up her college classes. She will be bred to Blu Eyed Handsome Man in February for a 2011 foal.” Ginger the pony: “This mare is in foal to Docs JB, a perlino stallion out of Oakville, Washington. This little mare is available for purchase. We've had a lot of interest in her but no one wants to deal with the foal.” Crystal Magic: “This mare is a proven producer who outproduces herself. She is a great addition to any breeding program. Currently not in foal but sells with a breeding to any stallions at Eternety Arabians” Costmeplenty: “This is a mare for anyone looking to breed an all around sport horse.” Corona Boralis: “She compliments the qualities of the stallion she's bred to and out produces herself both times. You can't find lines like these anywhere with the conformation and disposition she has. A prize to any breeding program for performance, sport and halter horses.” Dancin Flames: “Has been used for the past couple years as a broodmare for half-Arabians. Produced two beautiful half Arabian fillies, by the perlino stallion Blu Eyed Handsome Man. One of which I own and is currently available for sale”
The horses listed here are either currently in foal, have plans to breed or are being sold as suggested broodmares. Whether the horse is owned by you, or a friend, or a friend of a friend, it’s still your responsibility to at least try to talk some sense into the people around you to act in the horses best interest.
This seems to be a different than what you were saying in May ’09: “People sell bred mares because they believe that the 2 for 1 deal gives their horse the extra umph to sell faster.... Which I know it doesn't. It is quite a shame that people still over breed. Having a stallion doesn't help. I lease the stallion that I have now. He's great for my program but he's not my perfect dream stallion, which is why we haven't bought him, plus his owner doesn't want to sell him. He's her baby. Anyway it's amazing how many people have asked me why I haven't bred him to all my mares (I have four total and we may be purchasing two more). That would be 4-6 babies next year! WHAT!!!! Uhm no. I'm sorry. As a trainer I have my hands full as it is. I bred one this year for a foal next year and I'll breed one, MAYBE two next year for a foal or two in 2011, all three I intent to keep to show and use in my lesson program in the future. It's absolutely AMAZING how people I know who have been doing this for 10, 20 even 30 years still breed everything that comes into heat that they can get into foal.
oh.... I could go on.... What happened to responsible breeders? There has got to be a group or something where you can get a certificate of authenticity staying your a responsible breeder... of course I guess in someone else's eyes, I'm not responsible either. I mean, I own a stallion and I have a mare in foal.  Even though, I paid the vet bill for the exam and the shots and she's in as close to perfect health as all my horses either are or are working towards (the few from the auction). I've already set aside the money in an account for the shots, exams, registration AND futurity and breed programs... *Humph* Yeah... I get irritated over this stuff.”
If I’m missing something, please correct me.
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Post by schwung on Oct 26, 2009 17:17:52 GMT -5
I think most rescues are anti-breeding what there already is a million of i.e. Quarters, Paints and Arabs. Yup - those breeds are like the Pit Bulls and domestic short hair cats of the dog/cat world that fill the shelters - too many of them being bred and not enough demand. But I love that I'm being portrayed as the crazy rescuer that is against ALL breeding until the end of time...yes I am aware that if there were no breeding, there would not be any horses in 20 years and yes that's EXACTLY what I am proposing...NOT! For the record: - I am not anti-all breeding. I am for responsible, knowledgable, limited breeding which improves a specific breed and for which there is a market. The QH, Arabian, and TB markets are saturated and there is an overabundance of quality and unquality horses of these breeds being bred and limited breeding in those breeds would only HELP raise the demand and quality of those breeds. - I do not have a PHOBIA of stallions. I have a PHOBIA of irresponsible owners and breeders, and I think perhaps the most dangerous of those is one who doesn't see the forest for the trees and/or hypocritically thinks the rules don't apply to them, because THEY are knowledgable, or because THEIR stallion is SPESHULL, not like all those other mediocre stallions OTHER breeders have. - I do have to respect glapaints for being honest about who she is and what she does. No, she's not really helping the unwanted horse problem much by not gelding what she takes in and not placing them carefully. Sure, she probably has a few success stories and quite a few stories where horses she picked up at auction and resold just cycled back through the system and back in the slaughter pipeline and all she does is delay the trip. But, rescue is costly and expensive and its simply not possible to be both a horse trader or a rescuer. She's not promising to give horses forever homes or that they are safe for life - she's just offering them a reprieve. I get it, can respect it, because she's not talking out of two sides of her face. If she is honest about what she sells, their strengths and weaknesses and at least tries to match horses with buyers appropriately, she's a step ahead of most horse traders I know. At least she's not claiming to be something she's not. ***ETA: That said the above posted by caddyshack does make me go and call her credibility into question. - And lastly, being able to walk/trot/canter under saddle as a part of a breeding qualification process is laughable at best. I'm pretty sure that any and ALL horses, save those injured or born with some deformity, are capable of that, so that to me is the equivalent of saying that if the horse has a uterus or testicles it is breeding quality. Most horses I know that can w/t/c under saddle still could not even do a decent Training Level dressage test. The problem is that there is no true test that I can see of performance within most breeds outside of the warmblood breeds. Sure, there are halter classes. And then there are various walk/trot/canter classes in different tack. The horses that win are the horses that are steadiest, quietest, and most obedient, with extra points being given to a flashy color or a nicer mover. Nothing that difficult. Nothing that requires years and years of training in which only the superb athletes excel at the top levels. The QH breed in particular needs a breed and performance standard defined, and a way to measure and judge horses against that breed standard. Until that happens every breeder will be sure that THEIR stallion is SPESHUL and even though they support the idea of rescue, they can't even see they are indeed part of the problem.
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Post by winterlakesfarm on Oct 26, 2009 18:37:26 GMT -5
In all my years competing in hunters, I never saw a POA or Icelandic win anything o/f or on the flat. Everything on pony hunters in Welsh or Welsh/Arab cross ( that looks like a Welsh). For some reason, Arabs are not desirable on the hunter circuit. Okay Sheka but you have to admit if you were a judge you would want this POA to win ;D Pics of Gossip at her first POA show after we got her inspected and registered........big thank you to Cat for riding her so I did not have to! Best thing about this pony.........she's NOT PREGNANT!!!!!!!!!!
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Post by cyann100 on Oct 26, 2009 18:44:26 GMT -5
Just look at Seattle Slew, a very famous horse who more than met the specifications of being an "above performance breed of TB." You have all his offspring, children and grandchildren and at one point, 3 of them were in the same rescue facility. People just keep making more. A certain broodmare I helped place rather than be euthanized, was a grandaughter of Seattle Slew. It seems to me that sometimes even blood lines don't mean anything. Of course I lean more to the rescue side of the fence than some people, but I would be very careful in breeding even the most special sought after horse there was, simply due to the trickle down effect there seems to be. The next thing you know, backyard irresponsible breeders are breeding what ever they can to it just because of it's blood lines. (I'm not talking about those of you who put the time and training into your horses and make them for your own personal companions.) If I had been able to take this broodmare in myself, there is no way I ever would have bred it again, even if people were banging on my door begging.
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Post by schwung on Oct 26, 2009 18:49:41 GMT -5
Gossip Girl is indeed adorable and you guys have done a fantastic job with her. I hope she finds a home soon!
The POA registry requires inspections for registration? That's news to me, and if so, a huge step in the right direction for at least one American breed!
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Post by fanaberia on Oct 26, 2009 19:00:31 GMT -5
"The QH, Arabian, and TB markets are saturated and there is an overabundance of quality and unquality horses of these breeds being bred and limited breeding in those breeds would only HELP raise the demand and quality of those breeds."
I disagree. Although there is an overabundance with these breed, I don't feel that there is an overabundance of QUALITY horses of those breeds.
I may have a different idea of quality than you do (gathering this assumption from our differences in opinion about Amber.) I know that the horses I want are few and far between, and when they are available they sell fast; and for a lot of money.
I also don't think that limited breeding would raise the demand for quality. I think there is more of a demand for quality when there's more horses available; even though this means a lot more horses are weeded out and ending up at auction.
I believe that anyone that has any intention of breeding should be acquainted with breed standards, what's in demand, and what's winning. There aren't too many people out there right now that know all three.
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Post by schwung on Oct 26, 2009 19:20:45 GMT -5
I may have a different idea of quality than you do (gathering this assumption from our differences in opinion about Amber.) Um, I think you misunderstood me. I was not arguing that Amber is in fact top quality. I was arguing that SOME Egyptian breeders seem to think so. My point being that if there is no standard definition of what is "quality" in the Arab world, why should I accept your opinion as being any more or less valid than any other person heavily involved with the breed? For the record, Amber has some serious conformational issues that even if she weren't a rescue preclude her from being an ideal broodmare prospect, in my opinion, but I am not an Arab person and first and foremost I look for conformation that precludes exceptional performance, not just a pretty head.
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Post by fanaberia on Oct 26, 2009 19:33:12 GMT -5
I may have a different idea of quality than you do (gathering this assumption from our differences in opinion about Amber.) Um, I think you misunderstood me. I was not arguing that Amber is in fact top quality. I was arguing that SOME Egyptian breeders seem to think so. My point being that if there is no standard definition of what is "quality" in the Arab world, why should I accept your opinion as being any more or less valid than any other person heavily involved with the breed? For the record, Amber has some serious conformational issues that even if she weren't a rescue preclude her from being an ideal broodmare prospect, in my opinion, but I am not an Arab person and first and foremost I look for conformation that precludes exceptional performance, not just a pretty head. Yup, and so do I. Because if someone is telling you she is top notch, they are wrong. That's why my opinion is more valid. You know it, I know it. She still a nice horse, and she's cute. But not breeding quality. Arabs is all I do, and I show A LOT. 16 or more shows, about half of them Arab breed shows. So I stay current, you want to win, you need to know what they are looking for. I don't think a single well known trainer in the Northwest would tell you anything else. If you question whether I'm less or more valid go to a real trainer (who understands both the BREED and the DISCIPLINE; ei for sporthorse Joyce Thomas or Lindsey Anderson) and then have them tell you what they think. Some whacko off the internet looking for a bloodline shouldn't be the one.
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shekaberry
SAFE Volunteer
SAFE Volunteer Coordinator
Posts: 1,521
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Post by shekaberry on Oct 26, 2009 21:32:23 GMT -5
Oh, Gossip is just too cute! Is she registered POA?? Have you tried her over jumps? I remember her form the show; first with Kathleen then with Cat, and she was so well behaved!
If you want to win (at more than a local or regional level), you aren't going to go pick up Jim-bobs latest QH foal or an Arab from the auction. You are going to go to a well known and proven breeder and trainer. Simple as that.
You have done well with your rescued throw-away horses, Barbara, but you are the exception to the rule. The rule is that BYB's don't produce national champions. BYB's rarely produce anything besides a great 4H/trail mount (if the horse is lucky enough to make it to a trainer) or they produce what rescues rescue.
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Post by kdunham on Oct 26, 2009 21:36:06 GMT -5
I could really care less if people with quality animals breed or don't breed. Its the people breeding piles of crap that irritate me. Or those with quality stock that can't afford to feed it. That pisses me off.
I really think that training is the key to horses having the best shot at a long happy life. I think that is what Cat was trying to say with the W,T,C. Obviously anything has the ability to W,T,C. Unfortunately a huge portion of our equine population don't perform said gaits at a riders request. Well that's easy right? Look at Jasmine and Wishes. Not so easy. That criteria would knock them off as breeding stock right away. How about stricter criteria; W,T,C with a beginner on board? Well that would knock off one of my horses, most if not all the SAFE rescues, and many of your personal horses. What does that say? What is the average buyer looking for? I would say that many buyers will pay a good price for a horse that is not ancient, not lame, they could get on tomorrow and have a SAFE ride on, go to a little show, take out on the trails, work, cows, do some low level dressage, etc. Search dreamhorse and craigslist and see how many horses out there for sale really do meet that criteria.
So, train your young horses well. Make it so they never learned that bad behavior that freaks the average rider out. And reall, there are more buyers out there for QH's, Paints, and nutty little Arabs then there are in the niche market of Warm Bloods. When the little girl is begging her parents for that first horse that will no doubt shape her feelings toward horses for life they probably wont be picking up a 17.2 dumb Warm Blood.
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shekaberry
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Post by shekaberry on Oct 26, 2009 21:50:23 GMT -5
"I could really care less if people with quality animals breed or don't breed. Its the people breeding piles of crap that irritate me. Or those with quality stock that can't afford to feed it. That pisses me off."
Amen, girl. Key word being quality.
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Post by drsgjunky on Oct 26, 2009 21:56:13 GMT -5
I wish Americans would learn something about Warmblood registry standards and lose the pure-bred mentality that drives a majority of grade bred horses to Canada. Unfortunately, they don't seem to be wired any other way. They won't even make the effort. Unfortunately, that seems to have been the idea behind AWS, and all that does is convince people that said grade horses are worth $10k and they should make more of them. Ok... Let me rephrase that. I wish Americans would learn something about European Warmblood registry standards and lose the pure-bred mentality that drives a majority of grade bred horses to Canada. They do have a few hundred years on us.
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