|
Post by cat67 on Oct 21, 2009 14:31:14 GMT -5
"...a bad owner can happen to any horse..." Which is why stallions shouldn't be sold unless they are truly breeding quality and sold for breeding purposes with all the qualifications to back him up. You may have no intention of breeding him, and he may have a stellar personality as a stud, but the next owner may think it would be sooo kyoooooot to have a baby and would breed him. Cut the risk and geld. I could not agree more. I see people selling all these colts on CL and suggesting they "could be gelded." No, you do it so you know that it got done. Again, Dr. Briskey in Orting is really cheap for that if you are tight on funds. I've seen him do them for $80.
|
|
|
Post by fanaberia on Oct 21, 2009 14:31:26 GMT -5
Great, so he is going to be bred despite his lack of any type of performance career. I really don't understand how people can read this board and still not get the problem with that. *head desk* Seriously people! Okay well anyway. He's at my barn. He's safe and he's not going to be put to sleep. He now has lots of hay and he will go through training. *thumbs up* Will he be gelded? Dunno. Check back in spring and I'll tell ya. LOL! Hey, I'm with ya. I have WAjiih, one of the Elledge stallions. I did not geld him. I may geld him, I may not geld him. I have no plans either way. He's very manageable, I have the facilities, and I have the experience. I don't have any plans to breed him right now, but also no reason to geld him at the time (however, if I should decide to sell him, he will go as a gelding.) However, having competed extensively (I run around 16 shows per summer), I like the look of stallions in the ring. And there are A LOT of them in the arab "A" circuit, they stand out, and they BEHAVE. And honestly, most of them are not bred, and not marketed to be bred. Look at RA Monaco from Silver Aspen Ranch if you want an example. Marketed as a western horse, not a breeding stallion. You could be in the ring with a cane and seeing eye dog and not miss him. As far as my dude, he is breeding quality. And even though I have two mares, they are open and will remain that way until my mare gets her legion of merit, and until I find an outcross to breed to that I go crazy over. Also, pedigree won't save a horse, but it can help. Amber and Jasmine do NOT have very appealing pedigrees. They have interesting strains, but neither one is sired by anyone exciting, both have conformational faults, and neither one of them have papers right now anyway. There two great examples of mares that I'd never breed. However, as an owner I'd want papers on both. Breeding for strains is as pointless as breeding for color. There was a huge outpour of Afire Bey V babies out of Zodiac Matador mares from the Cooks last year. ALL of them found very, very quality homes quickly and they are very quality homes; (one of the mares that was just broke last year is on her way to nationals right now.) As far as your boy goes, I am glad he has a home. He's spent a long time on Craigslist for free... at least two years through at least two owners (I believe he started in Arlington). If you have the facilities, knowledge, and open mind to work with him with his appendages, power to you. Regardless of anything, however, there is NO sense in breeding a stud without a performance record. I don't care what a horse is good at (endurance, show ring, racing) but it needs to be good at something. We ride them, and you just can't ride pretty. It doesn't matter how stunning, pretty, and cute a horse is unless he has it on record. Secondly, with new market trends, unless his sire was something special, I don't care who grandpa was. And neither will anyone else who is serious for getting a quality horse. Same thing goes for the dam. She too needs to be distinctive. (For example, Wajiih's dam, although unshown is by Thee Desperdo and by Bint Zaarina, both with show records. The mare sold for $70,000 after his birth.)
|
|
|
Post by cat67 on Oct 21, 2009 14:35:14 GMT -5
This is why I’m a repeat client to a breeder with the credentials identified above to buy. There have been a lot of paints going through the Enumclaw auction, but I haven’t seen one by Ready to Zip…..(not campaigning, just making an observation) Yeah, I say that all the time...that I see a lot of QH's at the Enumclaw sale but the type of breeding is very consistent. It's cow bred, small, common headed, poor moving, no competition record and often colored - buckskin, dun, grulla. Haven't seen any colts by Indian Artifacts or Sonnys Hot Jazz walking around that pen. You don't see warmbloods unless it's a crippled old broodie and even THEN I would be able to get her rescued. But the warmblood people (real ones not the AWS ones) simply do not overbreed and thanks to inspections, they don't HAVE a low end. I wish other registries would learn from that!
|
|
shekaberry
SAFE Volunteer
SAFE Volunteer Coordinator
Posts: 1,521
|
Post by shekaberry on Oct 21, 2009 14:45:03 GMT -5
Amen, Cat.
|
|
|
Post by schwung on Oct 21, 2009 14:54:05 GMT -5
LOL! Hey, I'm with ya. I have WAjiih, one of the Elledge stallions. I did not geld him. I may geld him, I may not geld him. I have no plans either way. He's very manageable, I have the facilities, and I have the experience. I don't have any plans to breed him right now, but also no reason to geld him at the time (however, if I should decide to sell him, he will go as a gelding.) This is rather unfortunate considering I was told by Snohomish County Animal Control that you were told to geld him and they were under the impression that you would do so, and I am quite sure you are aware of that stipulation. You might think that Amber and Jasmine are not valuable breeding animals, but then again I have had plenty of people contacting me, in fact just a few days ago yet another Egyptian Arab whacko wanting to pay big bucks for her to export her to Egypt for her valuable, rare lines. I find the idea that any of them, including your stallion, are truly worthy of reproduction, pretty ridiculous. These animals were starved and left to die in Jean's backyard. If they were so valuable, she could have sold ONE of them to feed the rest that winter. Quite frankly, I am of the mindset that we really don't need to be breeding ANY Quarter Horses, Paints, or Arabians for several years and let the market for those breeds recover. Probably not a popular opinion, but this is a RESCUE website. Those of you with stallions and involved in breeding should probably really think about whether you want to be part of the solution or part of the problem. Even if you haven't bred them "yet", you are walking a very fine line.
|
|
|
Post by fanaberia on Oct 21, 2009 15:02:23 GMT -5
LOL! Hey, I'm with ya. I have WAjiih, one of the Elledge stallions. I did not geld him. I may geld him, I may not geld him. I have no plans either way. He's very manageable, I have the facilities, and I have the experience. I don't have any plans to breed him right now, but also no reason to geld him at the time (however, if I should decide to sell him, he will go as a gelding.) This is rather unfortunate considering I was told by Snohomish County Animal Control that you were told to geld him and they were under the impression that you would do so, and I am quite sure you are aware of that stipulation. You might think that Amber and Jasmine are not valuable breeding animals, but then again I have had plenty of people contacting me, in fact just a few days ago yet another Egyptian Arab whacko wanting to pay big bucks for her to export her to Egypt for her valuable, rare lines. I find the idea that any of them, including your stallion, are truly worthy of reproduction, pretty ridiculous. These animals were starved and left to die in Jean's backyard. If they were so valuable, she could have sold ONE of them to feed the rest that winter. Quite frankly, I am of the mindset that we really don't need to be breeding ANY Quarter Horses, Paints, or Arabians for several years and let the market for those breeds recover. Probably not a popular opinion, but this is a RESCUE website. Those of you with stallions and involved in breeding should probably really think about whether you want to be part of the solution or part of the problem. Even if you haven't bred them "yet", you are walking a very fine line. First off, Jean didn't want to sell her horses. Secondly, I was NOT asked to geld him, and it was NOT in my contract. So it is unfortunate that you are making assumptions there. So there is no stipulation there that I am aware of. I wanted to make sure the horse was adopted to me without strings as I didn't want to deal with a rescue organization. I still stand behind that neither one of the two mares are breeding quality. And I frankly don't know if he is until I can see what he can do under saddle. But that's my decision to make. I am part of the solution, not part of a problem. I have taken ALL of my horses from precarious situations and given them careers to where they are desirable on the market. I intend on doing the same for him. I don't like poor quality animals being bred, but I have no problem with quality animals reproducing. Apparently, your version of "breeding quality" doesn't match mine, so I can see where we may disagree. I do agree though this isn't the place to talk about breeding, which is why I haven't piped up until now.
|
|
|
Post by schwung on Oct 21, 2009 15:21:34 GMT -5
I realize it wasn't in your contract, because your contract was not even with a rescue organization, despite Snohomish County AC's policy that the horses would only be adopted through rescue agencies. However, Lisa Lyons, with Snohomish County AC, told me they were not to be bred. I consider the fact that they did not do anything to ensure that to be their failure.
My point is that without some type of inspection/approval process, then the definition of "breeding quality" will continue to be all over the board and completely subjective, and just because you say they are or aren't, doesn't make your opinion any more valid than those of the people who are trying to tell me Amber is worth $15,000.
|
|
|
Post by fanaberia on Oct 21, 2009 15:30:00 GMT -5
I realize it wasn't in your contract, because your contract was not even with a rescue organization, despite Snohomish County AC's policy that the horses would only be adopted through rescue agencies. However, Lisa Lyons, with Snohomish County AC, told me they were not to be bred. I consider the fact that they did not do anything to ensure that to be their failure. My point is that without some type of inspection/approval process, then the definition of "breeding quality" will continue to be all over the board and completely subjective, and just because you say they are or aren't, doesn't make your opinion any more valid than those of the people who are trying to tell me Amber is worth $15,000. It was a little more complicated than that, but the reality is he is my horse, and I own him without any stipulations. Also, every horse that was at that barn except for the one who was euthanized left VERY broke to ride, and each have an exceptional home. That was the whole point in placing these horses in the first place. As far as value of opinion, please remember that this is the industry that I live in. I work and show Arabs exclusively, and I have a pretty good sense of what they are worth. But, as I mentioned in my original post, without a show record, no one's opinion matters anyway. Additionally, it takes much more than one show to cement that breeding quality title in. And as I mentioned before, my main reason for keeping him a stallion is for ring presence and performance. For those who aren't sure what this is, Arabian nationals is streaming live online on Friday for the next week.
|
|
|
Post by cat67 on Oct 21, 2009 15:43:56 GMT -5
There are Quarter Horses, Arabians and Paints that are worth five and sometimes six figures and are just as valuable as, for example, a warmblood. It does not make any sense at all to stop breeding high quality QH's, Arabians and Paints just because the market is flooded with poor ones. The people who show QH, Arabian and Paint shows are still buying prospects - I personally know several people who have purchased expensive horses of these breeds in the past six months.
Breeding will always be related to rescue for exactly the reason that it is the initial source of every animal that ultimately winds up in rescue. I believe the best model is the one followed in the dog and cat world, in which it is common and even expected for high-end purebred breeders to be involved in rescue of that breed. If you create them, do your part.
|
|
|
Post by fanaberia on Oct 21, 2009 15:48:41 GMT -5
There are Quarter Horses, Arabians and Paints that are worth five and sometimes six figures and are just as valuable as, for example, a warmblood. It does not make any sense at all to stop breeding high quality QH's, Arabians and Paints just because the market is flooded with poor ones. The people who show QH, Arabian and Paint shows are still buying prospects - I personally know several people who have purchased expensive horses of these breeds in the past six months. Breeding will always be related to rescue for exactly the reason that it is the initial source of every animal that ultimately winds up in rescue. I believe the best model is the one followed in the dog and cat world, in which it is common and even expected for high-end purebred breeders to be involved in rescue of that breed. If you create them, do your part. Amen.
|
|
|
Post by schwung on Oct 21, 2009 15:57:17 GMT -5
Since you are equating horse rescue to dog and cat rescue, let me point out that there are no dog or cat rescues that I am aware of that allow rescues to be bred or adopted out unneutered animals. Even if say, they ended up with a whole slew of a hoarder/breeder's stash of "valuable purebreds".
I do commend breeders who support rescue of their breed by donating or taking back any horse they have bred. That is not, however, the same as a breeder who "rescues" a horse to use in their breeding program. I also do not support the idea of a rescue run by someone that also breeds.
|
|
shekaberry
SAFE Volunteer
SAFE Volunteer Coordinator
Posts: 1,521
|
Post by shekaberry on Oct 21, 2009 16:38:48 GMT -5
Unless they are breeding some *serious* quality (something that would be competitive and winning on the national and international circuits, not just in ribbons regionally), doing rescue and breeding on the side is a bit of a contradiction.
|
|
|
Post by kdunham on Oct 21, 2009 17:04:10 GMT -5
I think quality is different to everyone. If I were looking for a horse to buy I wouldnt give a crap if its parrents had won ribbons going around in a circle in an arena. I would want to look at the sire & Dams overall appearance, if they were older see if they were still sound, see if I thought they were the type of horses that could hold up to a lifetime of riding, and get on their younger offspring and see what I thought of their trainability. So, I don't know if I could say in a couple sentences who has the right to be a breeding stallion and who dosent. I can say I highly doubt I will ever own a breeding stallion and don't see myself breeding any mare when I could buy a quality 3yr old I could start tomorrow.
One things for sure tho. Three days ago when this thread started I *knew* this free gray arab on craigslist would be keeping his balls. We could argue about what quality is for days but I'm pretty sure quality ISNT free on craigslist for 2yrs...
|
|
|
Post by cyann100 on Oct 21, 2009 19:00:54 GMT -5
This has been a very interesting thread to read from the perspective of someone just coming into the horse world and who has a lot to learn. Everyone has some very valid points.
|
|
|
Post by trillium on Oct 21, 2009 19:24:12 GMT -5
When the subject turns to breeding I know the topic will get heated.
I also have a stallion, actually two of them. I do not breed them, and some may ask why I do not geld them. It is my personal preference not to at this time. Yes, I know that it would be better for them if I were to sell them, but I have no intention of doing so. They are my pets. They are not crazy, I have NEVER in 23 years of stallion ownership had a boo-boo baby. I am responsible for them. I have also turned down many people who drive by and want to breed to my stallion for "cheap or free". I do not keep them locked away from the other horses, I only keep them away from each other. People like me are not the problem and just because I have a stallion does not make me bad. If fact, I let a $2000 breeding go because after I got involved in rescue, I could not bring myself to rebreed my mare when she did not take. And the stallion has a good show record, I did research before picking my stallion. I even chose not to breed to my stallion because I wanted a champion sire for my mare.
But if you are breeding then have to put them for sale with a reason you need to get rid of them right away, then turn around and rebreed for more babies, then you are the problem.
If you get a horse and flip it in a matter of days, with no benifit to the horse, you are the problem.
If you do not register your purebred horses, you are the problem.
If you always need to get another horse because the one you have it not right and you do that over and over, you are the problem. If you are NEVER satisfied with the horse you have because it is not pretty or young enough, you are the problem. If you do not have the horses best interest in mind when you get it and you only have your interests in mind, you are the problem.
Some people do not consider me a rescuer because I do not rehome my rescues. I also disagree with that. What better way to rescue a horse than to give it a permanent home where it will not have to worry about anything again. But I consider 6 of my horses rescues. They were all on their way to no good ends when I got them. And Dancer would of died when Teddy was slaughtered so you could count her too.
PS, I still want to see a picture of how Exxtra Perception looks. So if you are training him, how about a photo?
|
|