rhea
Junior BB Member
Posts: 59
|
Part II
Apr 20, 2007 21:25:08 GMT -5
Post by rhea on Apr 20, 2007 21:25:08 GMT -5
Well, I was only trying to be helpful. I am not a trainer and not even near the level of one, but have started many of my own. The one thing that I am grateful for is that I had an open mind and listened to what other's had to say. Many times I may not have agreed, but found that many techniques I learned from "listening" and watching were what I later found helped me to start/train/ride/trail/show horses. I am so thankful for the multitude of people I rode with or boarded with that shared bits and pieces of their experience with me. They didn't have to. I gobbled up everything I could and took what worked for me and it worked. At age 41, I am still listening and watching others for ways to improve my horsemanship skills. The day I think I'm beyond learning more is the day I need to call it quits. Now I can only say I wish you were closer so you could fix Havana's alpha issues in 2 weeks for me also . If you had read my lastest post it would explain the changes Lady has had . To each their own I guess.
|
|
|
Part II
Apr 20, 2007 22:03:08 GMT -5
Post by slew on Apr 20, 2007 22:03:08 GMT -5
Just wondering if you still have PL for sale? I saw your ad on CL a couple of weeks ago. You probably will have better luck managing the TB if he is by himself and has only you to depend on .......be careful when PL is out of the picture.....he will readily jump fences or run through them......TB's don't do a lot of thinking.......flight response is huge with them. I have had my own boy take the side of my barn out....then break a 6 x 6 post. My first suggestions is to safely separate them.....borrow someone's horse for a while and exchange it with PL.....then switch them back....the horse becomes a little desensitized to his field partners and the coming and going of other horses..... but meanwhile......If your TB seems a little too interested in getting back with his buddy when you ride him....., ride defensively on a twenty meter circle or larger or even use a square....... Use extra inside leg to prevent him from cutting in on the circle or corner, and establish a strong defense with outside leg and a “guarding” outside rein to keep him from bulging out. Ride strongly forward. Gaze intently in the direction in which you want him to go. Avoid the temptation to look at the other horse or object of his interest, as you’ll inadvertently shift your weight and so may give him the exact opposite aids of what you intend. Praise him and keep initial sessions short and pleasant. Wear your helmet....and gloves.
This is going to take time......and then more time. He has had no discipline or routine for years......my personal suggestion is to get a professional trainer to restart him and help you.
If you are interested in John Lyons methods....read this:
HerdBound Horses..... This is a fun problem with our horses because it’s an easy one when we know how to work with it. First, let’s define some goals and what we want to teach.
Our goals are two-fold. Number one: We want to ride away from the group or buddy horse without our horse becoming upset or the other horse becoming upset. This means we will need to set up this situation of riding away from the other horse many times. Repetition is going to be the key to achieving these results. Riding away from the other horse once or twice a day will not get the job done.
The second part of our goals is to stay away from the other horse for as long as needed without either horse becoming upset. This is a time factor. In dealing with any time factor during training, always start with the shortest time and work to longer time limits. For example, ride away from the other horse for only a few seconds at first. Extend this period to 10, 20 then 30 seconds, then on to minutes until we reach the point that we can ride away for hours.
Two factors we have working in our favor during these training sessions are: Our horse is going to become excited, and our horse is going to be calming down on his own.
When we ask our horse to move away from the "buddy" horse, he is going to become excited in anticipation of leaving his friend. The other horse, at this point, is doing two things to help us in training our horse. One is giving our horse a distraction and two is helping us work with our horse’s emotions.
A distraction is something that takes our horse’s attention off us and onto something else. Distractions come in all different levels, from a leaf on the ground, a barking dog, a "buddy" horse, or even a bear. Distractions are nothing more than pop quizzes for our horse.
In other words, when we come across a distraction, it allows us to give our horse a test. The test is simply a question: will you (my horse) listen to this cue with this level of distraction? If the answer is yes and he responds correctly to our cue quickly and quietly with his mind and attention to us, he passes the pop quiz test. If the horse does not respond to our cue in this manner, then he fails the pop quiz test.
If the horse fails the test, we should return the horse to an environment where he will listen to that cue and begin to re-practice that cue. We will need to move our horse closer to the buddy horse or maybe not ride quite as far away. We might even want to return quicker to the area of the buddy horse.
The second area on which we are working on are the horse’s emotions. All horses become excited at different times and at those times we still need our horse to listen and respond to our cues. Set up the situation in a controlled environment to work on emotions. Get him just a little excited and then let him calm-down. The buddy sour problem can become an excellent opportunity for us to recognize that as we ride away and return, both horse’s emotions are on roller coasters. When we start to ride away, the horses become nervous, upset and excited. When we turn around and start to ride closer, they see the other horse is not leaving so they begin to calm-down. Believe it or not, this is extremely hard on a horse’s system, as it would be on our system. Soon, after putting their emotions through this kind of roller coaster of getting upset and calming down, the horses start to get a grip on themselves. They begin to realize the "buddy" horse is going to come back so they do not get quite so upset. It’s easier on a horse to become upset and stay upset for an hour or so than it is for him to become upset and calm down 50 times in that hour.
By riding away for 10 seconds, then returning and staying close to the other horse until both horses calm down, the rider is putting the horse’s emotions on this roller coaster. After a while, the rider will be able to go farther and farther away and stay gone longer without either horse getting upset. When the rider returns both horses will calm down quicker. This is a great opportunity for the rider to work with their horse’s emotions. Continue with this pattern of going away and coming right back until neither horse becomes upset by the leaving or returning.
At the same time you have been solving the buddy sour problems with your horse, you have also practiced hundreds of times asking your horse to turn to the left, turn to the right, pick up his lead, etc. By doing so you have concentrated on the parts of your horse’s training you wanted to improve and you were able to do so positively. Again, remember to ride where you can get the responses you want from your horse, not where he is doing things you do not want him to do.
With this method of training, you have determined your goal and developed an easy starting point for your horse. You may put steps between your starting point and your goal, with each of these steps being easy for your horse to attain. Both you and your horse have been safe throughout the lesson and it’s even been fun for you to ride and your horse to learn. Because of the approach you took to solve the buddy sour problem, you not only solved that problem but improved other areas of your horse’s training and performance as well.
Happy Trails, John Lyons
|
|
|
Part II
Apr 21, 2007 7:19:02 GMT -5
Post by trillium on Apr 21, 2007 7:19:02 GMT -5
Slew, thanks for posting that. I was going to go look it up and explain his method on how to help a herd bound horse. I got to see John Lyons demonstrate this at the Albany horse expo a couple of years ago. I really like him.
|
|
|
Part II
Apr 21, 2007 10:37:13 GMT -5
Post by slew on Apr 21, 2007 10:37:13 GMT -5
Honestly, I have never been to a John Lyons anything......but I would like to. I have read a few articles and what he does/says always makes practical sense.
I have always wanted to see him work a high strung TB with issues.....if anybody has the inside line with him, tell him I have a couple to offer.
I must have the two most herdbound TB's in the universe. They are never more than a blink away from each other. If one gets behind a barn wall........and they can't see each other, you will hear screams like Freddie Kruger was in town.
|
|
|
Part II
Apr 21, 2007 14:55:54 GMT -5
Post by cat67 on Apr 21, 2007 14:55:54 GMT -5
I must have the two most herdbound TB's in the universe. They are never more than a blink away from each other. If one gets behind a barn wall........and they can't see each other, you will hear screams like Freddie Kruger was in town. Well, then I have the most herdbound Appendix mare. That sounds JUST like Sunline although I'm sure with her part of the issue is her blindness. She needs her security blankets (Raquita and Kit) with her at all times.
|
|
|
Part II
Apr 26, 2007 19:05:50 GMT -5
Post by mypintoponee on Apr 26, 2007 19:05:50 GMT -5
In response to rhea, It took me much longer than two weeks, I dont know where you got the two weeks from.... and they werent alpha issues per say. She is still obviously young and doesnt understand, she does it out of confusion and frustraion, not to be the boss. She likes being a follower, even in a herd setting, and when she is pushed to be a leader she gets scared and needs something for comfort. I love any advice I can get, otherwise I would not post asking for advice. In response to Slew....Yes Lady is for sale but I am in no rush and not worried about getting rid of her. When the right people come it will be obvious. Red has neighbors over the fence, thankfully, and I would make sure and borrow a horse too, if there was a need. Its defineatly something I will be cautious about though. I have spent lots of time working with Red since I have gotten him and it seems he is getting better. I had a hunter/jumper rider come out the other day (my dad's friend's wife) and work with him and give me an idea of what I am up against, she spent some time working with him in the corral and even got on him. He was defineatly rusty and herdbound, so I kept Lady on a lead close by the whole time, but for the most part he was very good. She said he has had dressage training, and with time and work he should be a very nice horse, she could defineatly tell sometime in the past he has been mistreated as well (he has a fear of ropes/whips behind his shoulder... he is fine with them while lunging though). So I worked with him on the ground, practicing taking him away from the other horses and whenever he would stop focusing on me and get distracted I would lunge him in a small circle until he has back focusing on me (only took a few min. each time). I would also do other things to keep him busy, like stepping over logs, backing up, moving sideways, etc. Today I spent over an hour working on groundwork, lots and lots of lunging and joining up. When I saddled him, he got taken away from his buddies so he went a little nuts, calling out and moving around. I completely ignored him and tied him up (using a quick release, just in case) and it seemed to work. I think he has gotten away with acting like a nutjob and got to go back with his buddy. When he realized I was going to keep doing what I was doing and that he wasnt going anywhere, he stopped moving and the calling out got minimal. I lunged him in the corral for a few minutes just to be positive he was looking at me, then we headed out to do some more lunging with all the tack on. After we lunged there for a few minutes I got on. I quickly got to work keeping him busy, he is very, very sensitive to leg pressure and has a very nice whoa . I worked on walking away from Lady and the other horses, going over logs and walking, trotting, and even did a little cantering. He did very, very well. Still herdbound, but the busier I kept him the less worried he was. I rode for about 30-45min and when I untacked him he decided he wanted to go stand by me and get attention from me instead of Lady, what a good boy! I saddled up princess with the Aussie saddle, she hasnt been saddled in quite a while, and I hadnt worked her before hand. She had little reaction, even though I was having some technical difficulties getting the saddle on . We opened up the back pasture today too, its a little over 1/2 an acre and FULL of grass so Lady and Red were very excited about that. I have pictures of the day I will post here once they load.
|
|
|
Part II
Apr 27, 2007 8:33:50 GMT -5
Post by slew on Apr 27, 2007 8:33:50 GMT -5
I didn't know you were so experienced......sounds like you have it all under control.
good luck~
|
|
|
Part II
Apr 27, 2007 15:27:39 GMT -5
Post by slew on Apr 27, 2007 15:27:39 GMT -5
....if he has had dressage training, he should be fine with the whip touching him on the shoulder or hip.... you probably know that.
|
|
|
Part II
Apr 27, 2007 16:13:35 GMT -5
Post by averyacres on Apr 27, 2007 16:13:35 GMT -5
Maybe, but there are some TB's (like my mare and others I have worked with) that cannot handle the whip. ....if he has had dressage training, he should be fine with the whip touching him on the shoulder or hip.... you probably know that.
|
|
|
Part II
Apr 27, 2007 22:22:34 GMT -5
Post by slew on Apr 27, 2007 22:22:34 GMT -5
Gee, I didn't know we had other dressage riders here!!!!!!!! I have ridden TB's........OTTB's for most of my life. I have ridden dressage with them....schooled/shown up to third level. Initially, when they are right off the track, I may not school them with the whip, we will practice long and low for a while, general hacking....however the whip is part of your dressage equipment and an extension of your aids........eventually they are all ridden/schooled with a whip. A whip is not punishment, (as you know..... all of my OTTB's got used to the whip......I always have had and still do.......huge horses.....some very quick, very high strung and sensitive......but I have carried a whip with all of them......I don't know where you take or have taken lessons (do tell, because we probably know the same people), but even if I didn't want to carry a whip......I did because my instructor requires it....if Iwere to take a horse, say a green horse into a lesson and say the green horse would not take the whip, we would spend the next several lessons introducing the whip and desensitizing the horse to it. The only time I have not used a whip is in championship classes and then I have had SPURS on.....because they are required (again, I am probably not telling you anything new)
|
|
|
Part II
Apr 27, 2007 22:47:45 GMT -5
Post by averyacres on Apr 27, 2007 22:47:45 GMT -5
Well, that must be what it is as I have only ridden to 2nd level, but only on school horses, and haven't had a horse that I have shown beyond Training/1st level. I was actually thinking about your suggestion with the whip today while I was riding and thought that eventually Raina would be able to handle a whip, but honestly at this point she doesn't need a whip, she is very responsive to my seat and leg and I haven't had an issue with her not being responsive as we start advancing into doing lateral work, simple changes, etc. That could all change, but I can just picture her getting tense from me slightly touching her, as she is still a little jumpy sometimes when I groom her (she was a rescue, so I don't know her history, but she had major trust issues). I have done a lot of desensitizing with the lunge whip as I was pregnant when I got her, so that was all I could do with her was ground work, but being in the saddle is a different story... She has come a long way though from that and is really progressing quite well, especially since steering wasn't in our program when I started riding her-sure you know what I mean! I didn't know wearing spurs was a requirement. I thought that wearing the extras was always at the riders discretion...
|
|
|
Part II
Apr 27, 2007 23:42:51 GMT -5
Post by slew on Apr 27, 2007 23:42:51 GMT -5
The really great thing that I love about TB's is that they have a lot of heart and a lot of GO......you learn to be a very good, very light handed and sensitive rider......IMO.
It took me a long time when I got a warmblood to be able to effectively put my leg on and make the big lug go forward.....because I rode with so little leg on my TB boys (interpret this to read as I rode with my leg almost off the horse!!!! ;D ........... I was a very quiet rider with soft hands, a good seat and QUIET legs.....
then enter my warmblood era........
while with a TB a mere tap of the whip is sufficient to back up an ignored leg aid....... a crack of the whip may have to back up my roweled spurs on my nutcracker leg on my warmblood. My biceps are like Arnold's and my legs are like nutcrackers. Crazy........ my warmblood is lazy and his attitude is "there is no volunteer work"...you have to make me work for you. ... If I would have ridden my Tb's like I ride my warmblood, I would have been to the moon and back. ...maybe a couple of times.
anyway, if she doesn't need the whip and responds to your leg.....don't use it.......but carry it and get her used to it so that when you further her schooling up the levels she will be used to it. At some point it will be necessary...again, not as punishment merely an aid........
good to know you Avery.......
|
|
|
Part II
Apr 27, 2007 23:58:33 GMT -5
Post by averyacres on Apr 27, 2007 23:58:33 GMT -5
Good to know you, too! I am always open to suggestions and just like everyone else, have so much to learn even after 20+ years of riding and being around these beautiful beings... I do understand the riding the TB's to riding the Warmbloods!!! A lovely, but much different ride that's for sure!
|
|
|
Part II
Apr 29, 2007 19:26:24 GMT -5
Post by mypintoponee on Apr 29, 2007 19:26:24 GMT -5
My goal today was to get Lady lunging on a lungeline. She fights it quite a bit. Today though she actually did quite good. We had a couple incidents but other than that she was fine. She kept wanting to go eat grass and so when I kept taking her around in circles she would get a little PO'd. She also was very uncomfortable being lunged on her off-side for a while, we ended on a good note. She is VERY smart!
I lunged Red today as well, but for a much shorter time than the last time I rode him. I tacked him up at the top and this time there was no moving around or whinnying even though Lady left him. I rode him for about 45min. He is a FIREBALL. Last time I think he was so worn out from all the groundwork he didnt have enough energy to do much. He can seriously move. I cantered him up to the top and when I asked him to turn he whirled around on his back legs so fast I thought he was going to topple over. It was pretty crazy. He was upset about being away from his pasture and Lady, but most of the time was a good boy. He defineatly is a fun ride!
|
|
|
Part II
Apr 29, 2007 22:49:15 GMT -5
Post by mypintoponee on Apr 29, 2007 22:49:15 GMT -5
Here are some photos of Lady when I took her for a walk this evening. I gave her scratches in her itchy spot, right on the side of her wither. I have never seen a horse get so into it; her eyes roll back in her head, her top lip sticks out really far, and she sways around, lol. This was before her itchies And the itchy photos these really dont show how into it she gets, but you get the picture
|
|